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House pisses me off

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Rob, you ignored my questions about your '$400,000 worth of post fixes' statements, and what such an expense could really for 5D footage, and at the same time skirted Neil's post in which he discusses supervising a much less costly and more successful post-production workflow on the Canon DSLRs.

And yet after both our posts, you again mentioned this '400k' worth of fixes in post as if it was a real figure.

So, as someone who absolutely wants an Epic and just might surprise himself by being able to afford one by the last stage, I would again like to clarify that your talk of four hundred grand worth of fixes is by no means a real figure or related to actual information from the House finale, correct?

And I again ponder...can the 5D, carefully shot, be graded (or 'fixed') or not? If not, what will four hundred grand do, either than fund the RED re-shoot? If so, what magical tools will $400,000 give us that a much lesser sum would not?
 
David Rasberry said:
IBut when the associated hype leads to assumptions by those less knowledgeable that it is the cheap magic bullet for everything it ultimately devalues the craft and the worth of better instruments.
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lets just make one thing clear here. The only product on the market today that is hyped is RED. you guys get excited about camera that doesn't even exist. That is hype. Canons are not hyped at all. We all know their limitations. People actually buy these cameras and shoot footage with it, thats why they are so popular. Its not hype - Its capitalism, as you can actually buy these things. Hype is when bunch of geeks talk about the same camera for over 3 years that doesn't even exist.
 
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This whole Canon vs Red shit is played out. It makes the forum look silly.

Shoot on what you want. Let other people shoot on what they want. I shoot on both and use each camera in different ways. My film will be 50% Canon 50% Red 100% RAW.
 
Brad Webb said:
Rick McCallum's opinion means nothing to me. He probably thinks the Prequel trilogy is cinema at it's finest.

Here's 70 minutes of why he's wrong.

http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/12/17...video-review-of-star-wars-the-phantom-menace/

:emote_hippie:
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This is your best argument? You discount his opinion because you didn't like the Star Wars Prequels? Lucasfilm has lead the way in technology and advancement of QUALITY effects, visual (and even sound). So the story sucked - so what? Rick didn't write them. Are you going to say they were visually bad too? I think they know a few things about image quality of at ILM and Lucasfilm.

How do you come on a forum and publicly insult someone like Rick and then feel good about the reel you have up?
 
Neil_Hdi said:
Rob, you started this rather contentious thread by making a pretty damaging claim that Canon paid the DP, Gale Tattersall to shoot the season finale of 'House, M.D' on the EOS 5Ds Mkii ... I was somewhat concerned by your assertion and have double checked with a senior Canon manager who is in a position to know exactly what went on with the final episode ... he re-assures me that NOTHING of the kind happened and for you to suggest otherwise is an insult to a professional and highly respected DP ... unless you have some hard evidence to the contrary I suggest you retract that claim and maybe even apologize to Gale and Canon.

Professional DPs and Producers make all kinds of decisions based on a mixture of financial and aesthetic reasons ... just because you don't understand why a popular and well made TV show should want to shoot on HD DSLRs doesn't mean a thing ... if you listen carefully to Philip's interview with Gale and Greg you might just learn something about the art and craft of visual story telling.

Cameras are tools for skilled professionals to use in all kinds of creative ways .... but sometime you need to think outside the box .. we faced the same uphill battle when Jim first launched the Red One ... lots of people didn't want to believe that you could shoot great looking imagery on a $17,500 camera .... it seems that some people are having a hard time believing you can shoot great looking imagery on a $2500 HD camera.

There is plenty of room in the digital content creation world for REDs, Arris, Sonys and Canons .... why not embrace the technology and help your customers tell the best story they can with all the tools at their disposal?

Neil
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"JOIN US JOIN US EMBRACE THE FUTURE JOIN US. You do want to embrace the future don't you? You don't want to be left behind in the past when people cared about old-fashioned things like image quality. all the in crowd is using a 5D. That's the in thing. You don't want to be part of the out crowd do you? JOIN US 5D is great. Hail the 5d."

Is it just me, or does some of this sound rather Orwellian?

I'll tell you what, I do want to help my customers tell their stories, and mine, with the best tools possible and this is why I don't use a DSLR, but I do use Reds, Sony cameras, sometime Pannys and whenever possible film. Is this my right, or not? I am under no obligation to think the 5D doesn't stink. i don;t owe it or the people who chose to use it on high-budget projects any undue respect because this is a free country.

Here are a few responses to several posts, and yours:

Firstly, there is a huge logical gap in saying that in saying that because there was at first resistance to Red but then it turned out to be a great camera, we can conclude that any resistance any new technology is therefore invalid and will therefore later be revoked. That would justify making a car out of butter. "Oh yes, they're all saying that it melts in the rain and heat, and that it instantly kills all its passengers even in low speed accidents, but remember that people were resistant to Red at first too. Come on now, all the cool kids are driving the Lactancia 300XT - you're such a dinosaur, a metal protectionist."

Secondly, I said I FELT there must be something fishy about House. I didn't say I knew anything. I still have my doubts. Maybe the DOP is doing it because he thinks it will make him seem "in" and "with it" - maybe it was a publicity stunt, and maybe he is having trouble with his marriage and has lost his mind. I have no idea. Either way I think he is denigrating his profession by doing such a silly thing so publicly. NOT BECAUSE IT'S A CHEAP CAMERA BUT BECAUSE IT'S A CRAPPY CAMERA, and he's telling everyone, go ahead, shoot crap. If he shot House on a Bolex (which can be had for less than a 5D) on expired roll-ends purchased from a bankrupt film wharehouse it would make much more sense to me. It would be a look. I fail to see how overcompressed aliasing is a look in any desirable way.

Also, just because a tiny minority of people like the 5D does not mean most pros in the business do. Looking around Montreal, I see only no-budget music videos using the camera and no-budget features. No high-end jobs. Trust me, budgets are TIGHT here, we would jump at any VALID chance to save a few $$ - we certainly jumped on the RED, which was embraced by this community with 2 months of its release, as were P2 cams and the EX1. Asking around L.A. - same story. So really, the Hollywood verdict on the 5D is 99.99% against, and 0.01% for. It's just that 0.01% creates so much noise, and the other people are only behaving normally, so they get no attention. "Spielberg shoots on film!" is not much of a headline. Even "Spielberg shoots on Red!" would really be a headline anymore.

I say all this because I HAVE shot with a 5D and I wanted it to work. I TRIED EVERYTHING. It's not rocket science - you turn down sharpness, you use a Caprock filter etc, etc. I looked at the images and I said this looks like CRAP. Where are my beautiful HD textures, that the EX1 resolves so perfectly, let alone a Red? Why does her skin texture look so funny? Why can't I shoot a %^*$ in focus building with this thing? Why does the codec crap out so much?

Lastly, to those who say I am not "embracing new technology" I AM EMBRACING NEW TECHNOLOGY. It's called HDTV. How is shooting with a camera that delivers resolution only slightly better than SD embracing new technology? SD is not "the new thing", HD is. No really, you can look it up on Wikipedia. SD is from the 1930s. HD has been commercialized for less than a decade.

I also wouldn't exactly call Red my Grandfather's camera.

So my conclusion is this: You're an indy, you got no cash, I respect that. Shoot with whatever you can afford, and Godspeed. But if you're shooting prime-time network TV, you have a responsibility to your audience, and to the business. When you piss away that responsibility to join the herd in the latest idiotic fad you lose my respect.
 
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Tim H. said:
This is your best argument? You discount his opinion because you didn't like the Star Wars Prequels? Lucasfilm has lead the way in technology and advancement of QUALITY effects, visual (and even sound). So the story sucked - so what? Rick didn't write them. Are you going to say they were visually bad too? I think they know a few things about image quality of at ILM and Lucasfilm.

How do you come on a forum and publicly insult someone like Rick and then feel good about the reel you have up?
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It was a joke, sir.
 
Neil_Hdi said:
Rob, you started this rather contentious thread by making a pretty damaging claim that Canon paid the DP, Gale Tattersall to shoot the season finale of 'House, M.D' on the EOS 5Ds Mkii ... I was somewhat concerned by your assertion and have double checked with a senior Canon manager who is in a position to know exactly what went on with the final episode ... he re-assures me that NOTHING of the kind happened and for you to suggest otherwise is an insult to a professional and highly respected DP ... unless you have some hard evidence to the contrary I suggest you retract that claim and maybe even apologize to Gale and Canon.

Professional DPs and Producers make all kinds of decisions based on a mixture of financial and aesthetic reasons ... just because you don't understand why a popular and well made TV show should want to shoot on HD DSLRs doesn't mean a thing ... if you listen carefully to Philip's interview with Gale and Greg you might just learn something about the art and craft of visual story telling.

Cameras are tools for skilled professionals to use in all kinds of creative ways .... but sometime you need to think outside the box .. we faced the same uphill battle when Jim first launched the Red One ... lots of people didn't want to believe that you could shoot great looking imagery on a $17,500 camera .... it seems that some people are having a hard time believing you can shoot great looking imagery on a $2500 HD camera.

There is plenty of room in the digital content creation world for REDs, Arris, Sonys and Canons .... why not embrace the technology and help your customers tell the best story they can with all the tools at their disposal?

Neil
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Yes, because we have any reason to trust ANYTHING coming from Canon corporate. This by the way is coming from one of the Early Canon 5D adopters who missed the Red boat early on and wanted to play catch up to Contemporary HD technology.

I'm the first guy to shoot a feature on the 5D, also shot the world's first 7D feature. Never had a shred of help from Canon - whether from financial or even firmware to make the camera usable in a timely matter. I really love my 7Ds and they have WAY more than paid for themselves and helped me put money away for my future TOOL purchases (because thats what these cameras are) I'm hoping I can afford to get an Epic before it becomes financially unviable due to market saturation (see Red One rentals in Los Angeles).

I shot a film on Red for festival distribution today - and although I know in my heart of hearts that the PURE image quality of shooting Red is better than I would have gotten with my DSLRs - the production would have benefitted from going DSLR. Time would have been saved - we were understaffed and underscheduled and one guy with a DSLR can often times shoot a lot more (and/or better) coverage than someone on Location with an R1 and a two person crew can.

Overall my work as cinematographer will probably shine better because I pushed for Red as the best Digital system for our shoot, but I think the DSLRs (or DSLR sized Red) may have been a better choice for the film as a whole. Just sayin'.
 
Tim H. said:
This is your best argument? You discount his opinion because you didn't like the Star Wars Prequels? Lucasfilm has lead the way in technology and advancement of QUALITY effects, visual (and even sound). So the story sucked - so what? Rick didn't write them. Are you going to say they were visually bad too? I think they know a few things about image quality of at ILM and Lucasfilm.

How do you come on a forum and publicly insult someone like Rick and then feel good about the reel you have up?
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And how dare you insult my shitty little reel. I worked my ass off for little or no money; beg, borrowing, and stealing to put that stuff together. I know what my reel looks like. Most of the time I'm the DP, cam op, 1st AC, and gaffer. I'm just now getting to that point in my career where I don't have to do everything all the time, and I'm getting paid a decent amount of dough.

I worked my ass off to save up for my 7D (yes, I had to save up to buy it) I love it, it's the most amazing camera I've ever owned. That doesn't mean it's the most amazing camera ever. It has it's strengths, and it has quite a few weaknesses. Most notably that it records h.264.
 
Brad Webb said:
And how dare you insult my shitty little reel. I worked my ass off for little or no money; beg, borrowing, and stealing to put that stuff together. I know what my reel looks like. Most of the time I'm the DP, cam op, 1st AC, and gaffer. I'm just now getting to that point in my career where I don't have to do everything all the time, and I'm getting paid a decent amount of dough.

I worked my ass off to save up for my 7D (yes, I had to save up to buy it) I love it, it's the most amazing camera I've ever owned. That doesn't mean it's the most amazing camera ever. It has it's strengths, and it has quite a few weaknesses. Most notably that it records h.264.
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Gonna have to side with Mr. Webb on this one.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
When you piss away that responsibility to join the herd in the latest idiotic fad you lose my respect.
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oh lol ^^ so what does he do now!? I mean it, thats definitely the end of his career ... plz give him back your respect so we can watch moar house. plz, dont be soo mean to the fans.
 
Brad Webb said:
And how dare you insult my shitty little reel. I worked my ass off for little or no money; beg, borrowing, and stealing to put that stuff together. I know what my reel looks like. Most of the time I'm the DP, cam op, 1st AC, and gaffer. I'm just now getting to that point in my career where I don't have to do everything all the time, and I'm getting paid a decent amount of dough.

I worked my ass off to save up for my 7D (yes, I had to save up to buy it) I love it, it's the most amazing camera I've ever owned. That doesn't mean it's the most amazing camera ever. It has it's strengths, and it has quite a few weaknesses. Most notably that it records h.264.
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Exactly the response I wanted. You see, it doesn't feel good to be critiqued right? We all have our situations and things need to be viewed in context. So why even comment on others work when you still have work to do. Concentrate on your craft and stop wasting so much time on tech. The camera you use in your reel is not going to make or break you. Go shoot some epic (no pun) material and keep at it.
 
Brad Webb said:
I worked my ass off to save up for my 7D (yes, I had to save up to buy it) I love it, it's the most amazing camera I've ever owned. That doesn't mean it's the most amazing camera ever. It has it's strengths, and it has quite a few weaknesses. Most notably that it records h.264.
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I think you re missing the point here. No one cares about how good or bad the 5D is. Its just a tool. This whole thread is only about RED hype and snobbery. I came here to learn more about RED. What do I see!? lol. bunch of REDuser that probably dont even own one of these cameras, sitting the basement with pizza in one hand and typing how lucasart and house DP's aren't human beings and should be set to prison for using the "forbidden" camera. I wonder when you guys will start talking crap about Philip Bloom. Once that happens - its war!! you ll fear the whole world crapping on your shoulders. buuhaha. cant wait for it.
 
Wasn't this decision up to more people than the DP alone? Haven't we heard about the Director, Producers, etc, being involved in the decision to use the 5D? Can we lay bribery as a concept to rest in this discussion?

I'll be the first to concede that RED wins this battle a million times over in image quality, which, while unfortunately not the whole story in camera selection, is a big deal.

But it's getting really weird in this thread, to have everything from total rumor to wildly speculative numbers for post production costs thrown out there as part of the RED 'defense.'

The real question is why is the OP feeling so defensive in the first place. Do you really feel that RED has anything to prove, here? Aren't T.V. and music videos always going to be a shifting market? RED is a digital cinema camera that absolutely holds it's head high with the titans of of the market and within the entire history of Cinema. What else do you want? Your clients don't get it so you're venting here? With false information?
 
Tim H. said:
Exactly the response I wanted. You see, it doesn't feel good to be critiqued right? We all have our situations and things need to be viewed in context. So why even comment on others work when you still have work to do. Concentrate on your craft and stop wasting so much time on tech. The camera you used in your reel is not going to help you. Go shoot some epic (no pun) material and keep at it.
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There is a difference between being critiqued and being insulted. However I forgive you. No hard feelings. We're all friends here. I honestly was joking about Rich McCallum anyway. I know he and Lucas were impressed by Philip Bloom's work at Skywalker Ranch.

I entered this thread not understanding why House would choose to shoot with the same Camera I do. Of all the cameras (And lenses) they could shoot with, they chose the 5D. Of course the interview with Philip Bloom answered these questions. Obviously they felt it was the best tool for the job.

I hope they will talk about all the good AND bad experiences they had working with the 5D in a professional setting. I would really like know the obstacles they had to overcome in order to get the image up to their standards, or did they have to compromise at all. I'd like to hear or read interviews with the people that worked on this episode in post.
 
MastaMarek said:
I think you re missing the point here. No one cares about how good or bad the 5D is. Its just a tool. This whole thread is only about RED hype and snobbery. I came here to learn more about RED. What do I see!? lol. bunch of REDuser that probably dont even own one of these cameras, sitting the basement with pizza in one hand and typing how lucasart and house DP's aren't human beings and should be set to prison for using the "forbidden" camera. I wonder when you guys will start talking crap about Philip Bloom. Once that happens - its war!! you ll fear the whole world crapping on your shoulders. buuhaha. cant wait for it.
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This is a real names forum. please go here http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=587471#post587471

and have the mods change your screenname to your real name.
 
Brad - I actually agree with you. My point was not to insult you but just make a point. However, since we both agree that insulting someone is not a nice thing to do, lets take a look at the original post of this thread. That is an insult to a reputable DP.
 
Brad Webb said:
There is a difference between being critiqued and being insulted. However I forgive you. No hard feelings. We're all friends here. I honestly was joking about Rich McCallum anyway. I know he and Lucas were impressed by Philip Bloom's work at Skywalker Ranch.

I entered this thread not understanding why House would choose to shoot with the same Camera I do. Of all the cameras (And lenses) they could shoot with, they chose the 5D. Of course the interview with Philip Bloom answered these questions. Obviously they felt it was the best tool for the job.

I hope they will talk about all the good AND bad experiences they had working with the 5D in a professional setting. I would really like know the obstacles they had to overcome in order to get the image up to their standards, or did they have to compromise at all. I'd like to hear or read interviews with the people that worked on this episode in post.
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ok this is all i keep thinking what if House is cracked on the head and he is in a coma and the shallow DOF and the camera going in and out of focus and all the negative things are actually used on purpose to give some sense of disconnect to reality


they keep preaching that it fit the story that is the only reason its not like they will be shooting every episode on it

i did not read the whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned already

:beatdeadhorse5::beatdeadhorse5:
 
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