House pisses me off

[michael zaletel]

Are you sure it is a known fact that Canon paid for them to use the 5DM2 on House either directly or indirectly? Will be interesting if there is an out-of-place Canon commercial(s) during that episode or on other shows for the network.

-michael zaletel

 

[Von Thomas]

Here is a resolution chart created by Jim Jannard and is used in our REDucation class.

If you want to learn more about this in-depth, you should take REDucation where we discuss it at length with a lot more examples.

Michael Cioni of Lightiron Digital does a masterful job of disseminating this information, and making the RED workflow flow.

Von

 

[Rick Burnett]

Here is a resolution chart created by Jim Jannard and is used in our REDucation class.

If you want to learn more about this in-depth, you should take REDucation where we discuss it at length with a lot more examples.

Michael Cioni of Lightiron Digital does a masterful job of disseminating this information, and making the RED workflow flow.

Von

The OP problem is not that the people using these cameras don't know about these issues, it's about the client not understanding what the people had to go through to get that result in terms of limitations and post work, and that without that information, they don't have a clear image on the whole process.

This has NOTHING TO DO with the discussion. I think everyone who has posted to this thread for the most part has clearly shown they understand the limitations of DSLR technology as it stands. That's not the issue.

Unless of course you are expecting clients to come to REDucation which maybe that would help them.

 

[Evin Grant]

Are you sure it is a known fact that Canon paid for them to use the 5DM2 on House either directly or indirectly? Will be interesting if there is an out-of-place Canon commercial(s) during that episode or on other shows for the network.

-michael zaletel

It was a creative decision.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

The OP problem is not that the people using these cameras don't know about these issues, it's about the client not understanding what the people had to go through to get that result in terms of limitations and post work, and that without that information, they don't have a clear image on the whole process.

This has NOTHING TO DO with the discussion. I think everyone who has posted to this thread for the most part has clearly shown they understand the limitations of DSLR technology as it stands. That's not the issue.

Unless of course you are expecting clients to come to REDucation which maybe that would help them.

In my opinion, such a client would be a dream come true. I have always felt that the more they know, the better.

Agree - this is about finding ways to show people, to explain to be people, to make good arguments the non-tech can understand without making them feel foolish.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I wonder though how it'll look as a heavily compressed web video? Or as a SD analog cable image? They may be banking on it being "good enough". Which brings me to an interesting point which I don't see raised much.

Most people see 24 and House as examples of the 5d being awesome, but 24 got canceled and House's ratings have been dropping significantly as well. This may be less of a show of strength for the 5d and more of a show of desperation on the part of producers trying to cut costs at, well, any cost.

I think 24 has done what it could do with its show bible. It was starting to get repetitive and predictable. Lots of shows are doing great, and in general production values are higher now than ever, with a huge number of shows using a cinematic approach.

BTW - another misinformation myth I see all over the net - a 5D was never really used in 24, for any full-frame video, only within an array mounted to a car for background footage - thus the resolution is not really shown, you have maybe 6 5D outputs stitched together in something like Quicktime Vr, all of it out of focus.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well, that's certainly an astute insight. Thanks for sharing.

I was just kidding around. I meant no real offense.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

That's a rather presumptuous statement considering you've probably never even seen the piece I'm referring to.



No, no brick buildings (although it did have some brick building miniatures - does that count?). But it did contain loads of day exteriors in hot sunlight in a high desert environment. And for the most part, handled it pretty well.

I don;t have to see any particular piece, the compression issue will be present in any footage. It is not a comment on the cinematography.

High desert environments are not the issue. There are other issues.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

agreed. this thread smells of protectionism...

Wanting high standards for gear and crew is not protectionism.

 

[M Most]

- a 5D was never really used in 24, for any full-frame video, only within an array mounted to a car for background footage - thus the resolution is not really shown, you have maybe 6 5D outputs stitched together in something like Quicktime Vr, all of it out of focus.

But it was used - along with the 7D - full frame and intercut with Red on "Southland" on a very regular basis. And the fact that most people here didn't know that and didn't notice should say something. It probably won't, but it should.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Ibloom:"Festen" was shot on a cheap Sony Digital Camcorder by one of our greatest DPs Anthony Dodd Mantel."

I love Tony and admire him in many ways, but to call him that is a stretch. That term should be used for people who can also light.
I love "Festen" but it was picturequality wise a pain to watch in the cinema in a way that did not especially serve the story. Those where the days of Dogma 95 and the use of a small DV camera was new and exciting and has made Tony a wonderful career, mostly because he has the ability to tell a story and is a very charming man.
I have that camera and I love it for what it can do.I have a 5D and I love it for what i can do. I have a RED One and I love it for what it can do.
I have shot sooo much 35mm and 16mm film and even a lot of Betacam, in the early days, and later IMX with an adapter.
S35 is King in many ways and S70mm is the ruler of the Universe.
They are still just tools.
I love them all for what I can do with them.
Choose the tool that matches your story/budget/abilities/ambitions.
Sometimes you can even choose a tool and shape the above for that.
Sometimes the rules of what is good and correct have to be broken.
Sometimes you can even be succesful doing that.
But its still just a tool that we use to tell stories.

Oh I se now that I should just have written" I completely agree with Richard Darge"!

If tools aren't important and its' all about the story, again, why aren't you a scriptwriter?

Besides, it sounds like you think you disagree with me, but really this post is about hype misleading people to chose the wrong tool for job.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

But it was used - along with the 7D - full frame and intercut with Red on "Southland" on a very regular basis. And the fact that most people here didn't know that and didn't notice should say something. It probably won't, but it should.

I never watched Southland. I don;t know if that's true because there is so much misinformation. I'd have to look it up.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Sat 1st May - West Hollywood HD SLR Event

Sat 1st May - West Hollywood HD SLR Event

Frankly I think a talented colorist can do wonders with 5D footage...but it might not take 400 grand. The fellow from Raw-Works sure did an impressive job with Bloom's footage at their recent dust-up in Hollywood.

Thanks Stuart for you kind words about Jeremy our colorist here at Hdi RAWworks ... we shot Philip Bloom's 'A Day At the the Races' on an EOS 7D with a Cooke S4i lens .... everybody who's seen it screened in a calibrated environment is pretty happy with the result ... very filmic.

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2010/03/07/races/

This thread reminds me a little of the discussion that took place about four years ago on CML .... all the established CML DPs were up in arms against this 'upstart' camera company touting a 4k digital cinema camera at $17,500 .... I sent an email to Jim back in the summer of '06 saying that he should ignore the vitriol and 'plow his own furrow' .... four years later, Geoff Boyle his strongest critic then is now his strongest defender .... in the meantime, many CML and ASC DPs have become avid converts to the beautiful imagery obtainable with the R1 and M-X sensor ... change is the hardest thing for many people to accept.

Four years is along time in the digital revolution and and now we're all waiting with bated breath for the arrival of Epic and Scarlet.

The problem at the moment is the "wait" .... as we all know, Jim and his intrepid team have always said upfront that 'everything is subject to change' .... and quite rightly ... making high quality CMOS based acquisition devices is a tough game ... however, the DSLR based cameras companies have been making 35mm CMOS cameras for a few years now and though they had no plans to get into the film and TV market with their HD enabled DSLR cameras a few cool experienced DPs have taken this technology and shot some very cinematic imagery with it and used the small form factor and low light capabilities to amazing effect.

For example, we had a micro budget ($400k) indie movie come to us just before Christmas ... they wanted to shoot digital but with high production value (the star of the movie 'Isolation' is Susan Sarandon's daughter) .. the DP had shot only film and RED before but one of the Producers knew about the Canon's HD capability ... we were all for pushing the RED but we did some tests with the DP and the Director (Stephen Kay who directs 'Sons of Anarchy) and in the end, for a variety of reasons, they chose to shoot on three 7Ds ... we haven't color corrected the final movie yet but last week we did a focus group screening to check out the rough assembly .. Jeremy did a quick best light grade on the ProRes timeline and we projected the movie on our 2k DLP projector to an audience of people who didn't know anything about the movie ... I sat in the back row of our DI theater determined to watch for the technical problems of shooting in 8 bit H.264 uprezzed to ProRes422HQ (and this is the same theater where the the very first RED images were graded for IBC '06 and the first M-X graded footage was shown to a select group of ASC DPs in January '10 just before the first RED DAY at Ren Mar studios) ... I was ready to be super critical about the imagery ... however, after about five minutes I forgot about the technical stuff and concentrated on the story (they need some reshoots!) .... anyway, the point is this, RED is a much better camera technically than the HD DSLRs (by far) but at some point it doesn't matter ... its all about the story and the performance ... these HD SLR cameras are no longer a reason to shoot a bad looking movie (you can if you want to, just like you can shoot a bad looking RED movie if you really try hard) ... but if you have a compelling story with good actors and a talented DP and colorist who know how to work within the limitations of the technology, these cameras can create the 'willing suspension of disbelief' just as well as any other high end digital cinema camera.

Our philosophy now is to embrace all this amazing camera technology and let filmmakers run with it ... we'll help them get the workflow sorted out and make sure it all cuts together seamlessly in post .... we even had Terrance Malick in our RAWworks room a couple of week's ago looking at the Canon stuff ... they're in the middle of pick-up shots on the 'Tree of Life' .... if you know who Terry is, you'll know he's rather particular about his movie making.

So guys, relax ... Moore's Law is going to continue to drive our industry ... cameras will continue to get faster, cheaper and better .... RED is well positioned to capitalize on the advances in microprocessing and sensor technology ... Epic and Scarlet will change the digital acquisition landscape in ways that we can only imagine now ... in the meantime if you want to understand how to get the most our of these pesky HD DSLRs, come along to our HD SLR Extravaganza event on The Lot in West Hollywood in Sat 1st May ... we'll be showing the RED/Canon Intercut reel that Rodney Charters, ASC shot last year as well as some other interesting HD SLR footage ... see for yourselves if these cameras can tell a visually believable story ... details below in the Hdi RAWworks link:

Neil

 

[Rick Burnett]

In my opinion, such a client would be a dream come true. I have always felt that the more they know, the better.

Of course, my problem is I am a technical person who loves the hell out of technology (hence the reason I have a masters in electrical engineering). What I find interesting to talk about, most people look at me with glossed over eyes and a "what?" expression. (which is what I love about here, people talk about this stuff!)

I totally understand when you are hesitant to want to have an argument with a customer who may not even understand 10% of the problems you are trying to prevent them and yourself with having to deal with. I live that challenge every day of my life. I think I bore my girlfriend to tears sometimes with all the technical crap I spew out! Some people just hear everything as an excuse or a reason to charge them more, even when you are sincere and honest.

I'm still waiting for someone to shoot a whole movie with the iPhone camera because seriously, it's the best digital video camera available today.....bwhahahahah! I had a hard time writing that.

But you know, if someone did, they'd be hyping it that it was done with one. Probably attach a 35mm DIY adapter to one. Probably get a whole 4 stops of dynamic range!

 

[M Most]

I never watched Southland. I don;t know if that's true because there is so much misinformation. I'd have to look it up.

I work in the post facility that posted the series and archived it for the studio. I don't make things like that up. But if you don't believe me, you can ask Brook Willard, who was the DIT on the show and posts here regularly.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

But you are fueling an argument based on opinion. We do not throw out 90% of the shots we do because we know where and when to use the camera. (Though we do throw out shots). Unless they want to share that information, only you can determine how much work is required by experimenting yourself. Some people are okay with working with this source footage.

And really, at the end of the day, if they were happy spending whatever cost and pain to get the form factor and results they got, then so be it, then what is wrong with that? They wanted to do something different AND ride the buzz it generated. Kudos for them. They seized an opportunity to get interest in their show by a technology choice. I think that is brilliant. I'm going to watch this episode and I don't even watch house just to see how it looks!

Talk about free advertising! And we're doing it for them. Pure brilliance.

You miss the point - my clients - and yours - will think "The 5D is great". they don't have 400K for post. They will be unhappy when I either refuse or cannot match the look with 15K of post or less.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I work in the post facility that posted the series and archived it for the studio. I don't make things like that up. But if you don't believe me, you can ask Brook Willard, who was the DIT on the show and posts here regularly.

OK. But I'd have to see those shots and what it was really used for.

 

[Rick Burnett]

You miss the point - my clients - and yours - will think "The 5D is great". they don't have 400K for post. They will be unhappy when I either refuse or cannot match the look with 15K of post or less.

But shouldn't the cost for post be determined up front? Maybe it's my ignorance of how that part of the business works, but I'd imagine you would estimate an amount of work based on history of working with the equipment you are using. The problem here seems to be a lack of using said equipment to know how much work you are going to get hit with.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Thanks Stuart for you kind words about Jeremy our colorist here at Hdi RAWworks ... we shot Philip Bloom's 'A Day At the the Races' on an EOS 7D with a Cooke S4i lens .... everybody who's seen it screened in a calibrated environment is pretty happy with the result ... very filmic.

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2010/03/07/races/

This thread reminds me a little of the discussion that took place about four years ago on CML .... all the established CML DPs were up in arms against this 'upstart' camera company touting a 4k digital cinema camera at $17,500 .... I sent an email to Jim back in the summer of '06 saying that he should ignore the vitriol and 'plow his own furrow' .... four years later, Geoff Boyle his strongest critic then is now his strongest defender .... in the meantime, many CML and ASC DPs have become avid converts to the beautiful imagery obtainable with the R1 and M-X sensor ... change is the hardest thing for many people to accept.

Four years is along time in the digital revolution and and now we're all waiting with bated breath for the arrival of Epic and Scarlet.

The problem at the moment is the "wait" .... as we all know, Jim and his intrepid team have always said upfront that 'everything is subject to change' .... and quite rightly ... making high quality CMOS based acquisition devices is a tough game ... however, the DSLR based cameras companies have been making 35mm CMOS cameras for a few years now and though they had no plans to get into the film and TV market with their HD enabled DSLR cameras a few cool experienced DPs have taken this technology and shot some very cinematic imagery with it and used the small form factor and low light capabilities to amazing effect.

For example, we had a micro budget ($400k) indie movie come to us just before Christmas ... they wanted to shoot digital but with high production value (the star of the movie 'Isolation' is Susan Sarandon's daughter) .. the DP had shot only film and RED before but one of the Producers knew about the Canon's HD capability ... we were all for pushing the RED but we did some tests with the DP and the Director (Stephen Kay who directs 'Sons of Anarchy) and in the end, for a variety of reasons, they chose to shoot on three 7Ds ... we haven't color corrected the final movie yet but last week we did a focus group screening to check out the rough assembly .. Jeremy did a quick best light grade on the ProRes timeline and we projected the movie on our 2k DLP projector to an audience of people who didn't know anything about the movie ... I sat in the back row of our DI theater determined to watch for the technical problems of shooting in 8 bit H.264 uprezzed to ProRes422HQ (and this is the same theater where the the very first RED images were graded for IBC '06 and the first M-X graded footage was shown to a select group of ASC DPs in January '10 just before the first RED DAY at Ren Mar studios) ... I was ready to be super critical about the imagery ... however, after about five minutes I forgot about the technical stuff and concentrated on the story (they need some reshoots!) .... anyway, the point is this, RED is a much better camera technically than the HD DSLRs (by far) but at some point it doesn't matter ... its all about the story and the performance ... these HD SLR cameras are no longer a reason to shoot a bad looking movie (you can if you want to, just like you can shoot a bad looking RED movie if you really try hard) ... but if you have a compelling story with good actors and a talented DP and colorist who know how to work within the limitations of the technology, these cameras can create the 'willing suspension of disbelief' just as well as any other high end digital cinema camera.

Our philosophy now is to embrace all this amazing camera technology and let filmmakers run with it ... we'll help them get the workflow sorted out and make sure it all cuts together seamlessly in post .... we even had Terrance Malick in our RAWworks room a couple of week's ago looking at the Canon stuff ... they're in the middle of pick-up shots on the 'Tree of Life' .... if you know who Terry is, you'll know he's rather particular about his movie making.

So guys, relax ... Moore's Law is going to continue to drive our industry ... cameras will continue to get faster, cheaper and better .... RED is well positioned to capitalize on the advances in microprocessing and sensor technology ... Epic and Scarlet will change the digital acquisition landscape in ways that we can only imagine now ... in the meantime if you want to understand how to get the most our of these pesky HD DSLRs, come along to our HD SLR Extravaganza event on The Lot in West Hollywood in Sat 1st May ... we'll be showing the RED/Canon Intercut reel that Rodney Charters, ASC shot last year as well as some other interesting HD SLR footage ... see for yourselves if these cameras can tell a visually believable story ... details below in the Hdi RAWworks link:

Neil

OK sorry but this is exactly what I was talking about: "DSLRs are not so bad - I will put you in the same bag as a dinosaur-ish pathetic figure if you say different - now let me sell you something to go with your DSLR, your real problem is that you don;t yet have the course, DVD set and/or accessories I am selling."

 

[Rob Ruffo]

But shouldn't the cost for post be determined up front? Maybe it's my ignorance of how that part of the business works, but I'd imagine you would estimate an amount of work based on history of working with the equipment you are using. The problem here seems to be a lack of using said equipment to know how much work you are going to get hit with.

They give you a budget, but they don't pay to fix what they will consider your screw-ups. You pay for those kinds of situations out of your savings, and when that runs out you go bankrupt.