House pisses me off

[Rob Ruffo]

I think people are just tired of the RED/DSLR discussions. The topic has been discussed more than any other topic I can think of over the last year alone. It's not that it isn't a valid discussion point, it's just there is so much already written that if someone really wanted to discuss the merits of usage of these two general cameras, the prior arguments/threads are still valid, and searchable.

I agree however with the point that I've seen similar posts deleted/not deleted and don't see a pattern that makes obvious sense. I was disappointed when the other camera forum went away and pointed everyone to DVXUSER because frankly, I'd rather be on this site and not both. Or, at least if those posts were off-topic they'd have been put in off-topic. I guess we need an 'off-topic off-topic'

For Rob though, another user 'George D' pointed me to this:

http://poetzerofilm.com/2010/04/8-reasons-not-to-buy-a-dslr/

I think it's a pretty well laid out summary of most of the major problems with a DSLR and if you want something simple to show your clients, start with something like this. I was impressed with the quality of the write-up. It's something I am going to pass on to local cinematographers who are interesting in DSLR. This way, they will know what they are getting into.

Yes, that is a good link. I just hope clients will read some of this, and have realistic expectations. That's really all I'm peaved about, unrealistic expectations from clients, and the need to "educate" them away from what they've been told online by 1000 5D fanboys and the people who profit off of them. In this thread more ideas have come up. It is useful.

 

[Rick Darge]

I have no problem with people doing whatever - it's the client-confusing hype that bothers me. I am a DP-director. We don't rent gear except to our own shoots or shoots within our own private shared equipment "cooperative".

We need not ride any way we don;t like. 'Just ride the wave" is the definition of herd mentality and mindless conformity, the opposite of being a leader of integrity in your craft and in your community. Real heros do stop waves. I often fail, but I do try to be that hero in every aspect of my life.

Fair enough ~

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I am a professional chip designer and I give the customer what they want. When they want something that doesn't make sense or goes counter-productive to the end result, I very carefully and methodically explain to them issues with their request/desire and what caveats there will be and let them make a decision if they want to go down that path or not. THEY are paying me, I INFORM them and EDUCATE them of the risk, THEY make the final decision.

All legal and moral issues aside, if the doctor says "Hey, that will kill you!" and the customer says "I know, let's do it anyways." then at least they know what they are in for.

Like I said from the beginning, if you can't convince these clients of what value add you offer, you need new clients!

Many agency creatives already feel lost about all the tech stuff. It's not fun to have to tell them that something they were sure they DID understand is in fact wrong. It puts a bad vibe. I would rather not have an argument with a client than win one. Again, the hype creates an argument in pre-prod that previously was not there.

 

[jimhare]

Well said Brad! I think this sums it all up. In the end, I can't imagine that they will have saved a great deal of money. They will have only added uncertainty, painful post, and H264.

Between cast, production designers and the rest, they are spending hundreds of thousands per episode. Saving $500 on camera rental is not at the center of this whole thing, it just couldn't be.

I heard that this was not just because of the desire to shoot in tight spaces, but that if it works they want to shoot the entire next season on 5D.

This astounds me to no end...

That is exactly the point. Only House will know how much damn post work and extra money they spent to spit shine up all the moire and aliasing they got. Only House will know how much money they lost during production when they had to spend a few extra hours a day to make the shots look right in the camera, or how many times they missed focus working with those Canon SLR lenses. No doubt the end product is going to look incredible. This is what producers are going to see, and every one is going to hear "well House did it, and it looked good."

This is where the misinformation will come from. The producers are only seeing the money saved on the cost of camera. They are not seeing the money lost on post and on set.

 

[Rick Burnett]

If a client is so overhyped about a product to the point they ultimately fail because they insisted on using it, honestly, they need to fail. Or, they need someone to set them straight with clear concise proof of why they will fail.

I still contend it is NOT misinformation, it's just not the whole story. There is a big difference there. People doing things like the post I made earlier point out the '8 reasons not to buy a DSLR' are doing a LOT MORE to help you out then complaining here, seriously. That said, I think there is some GOOD information in this thread pertaining to how many things you CANNOT shoot with many DSLR solutions. This thread became constructive.

I love how analogies get thrown around thought, like riding the wave You can look at another way, those that don't ride the wave get left behind. It's all about deciding which wave you want to be on and which you don't.

 

[Stephen Williams]

You don;t hear anyone speaking ill of mini-DV cameras because they are what they are, and clients do not have over-hyped expectations about them.

Hi,

You were not working in the business when mini-DV first arrived, 'as good as film' I remember hearing.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Yes, that is a good link. I just hope clients will read some of this, and have realistic expectations. That's really all I'm peaved about, unrealistic expectations from clients, and the need to "educate" them away from what they've been told online by 1000 5D fanboys and the people who profit off of them. In this thread more ideas have come up. It is useful.

This will always be the case, as some new amazing gizmo comes out ALL the time that makes waves in the online communities and ultimately into the marketing people's brain. Only trial and ERROR is going to set people straight.

And the best part, like I've said in many a thread, just as people are coming down on the DSLR high that's been going on, there will be Scarlet to say "Hey, remember all those parts of shooting with the DSLR that you loved? Remember all those parts that you hated? Well, now you can get rid of the ones you hated and still have all that you loved!" I think people will be flocking to Scarlet in droves (which is why I cannot wait for red to offer a deposit phase or something so I can get in line!!!!) (I mention Scarlet and not Epic only from a price perspective).

I'm waiting for the next argument after the Scarlets come out:

"All these people are shooting on stills glass and not cine glass"



(And yes, I am saving all my Canon glass to shoot on my S35 because I love how they look).

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Hi,

You were not working in the business when mini-DV first arrived, 'as good as film' I remember hearing.

I hate to reveal how young I am, but I was still in Uni. Really? People said that?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

This will always be the case, as some new amazing gizmo comes out ALL the time that makes waves in the online communities and ultimately into the marketing people's brain. Only trial and ERROR is going to set people straight.

And the best part, like I've said in many a thread, just as people are coming down on the DSLR high that's been going on, there will be Scarlet to say "Hey, remember all those parts of shooting with the DSLR that you loved? Remember all those parts that you hated? Well, now you can get rid of the ones you hated and still have all that you loved!" I think people will be flocking to Scarlet in droves (which is why I cannot wait for red to offer a deposit phase or something so I can get in line!!!!) (I mention Scarlet and not Epic only from a price perspective).

I'm waiting for the next argument after the Scarlets come out:

"All these people are shooting on stills glass and not cine glass"



(And yes, I am saving all my Canon glass to shoot on my S35 because I love how they look).

But some arguments are silly - some SLR glass is truly awesome. I don't think the DSLR cautions are silly though, and never before have we had such an active online community of both excellent information and hype. I'm sure scarlet will be a great 2/3rds camera that, importantly, DOES EXACTLY WHAT IT PROMISES TO DO.

 

[Brad Webb]

Does anyone know when this episode of House will air? As much as I disagree with choice of using the 5D to shoot an entire episode, I really do want to see how it looks.

Also, I would like to thank the moderators and everyone who posted for being civil and not getting this thread closed down and/or deleted.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

If a client is so overhyped about a product to the point they ultimately fail because they insisted on using it, honestly, they need to fail. Or, they need someone to set them straight with clear concise proof of why they will fail.

I still contend it is NOT misinformation, it's just not the whole story. There is a big difference there. People doing things like the post I made earlier point out the '8 reasons not to buy a DSLR' are doing a LOT MORE to help you out then complaining here, seriously. That said, I think there is some GOOD information in this thread pertaining to how many things you CANNOT shoot with many DSLR solutions. This thread became constructive.

I love how analogies get thrown around thought, like riding the wave You can look at another way, those that don't ride the wave get left behind. It's all about deciding which wave you want to be on and which you don't.

I look at the client as my partner, I never want them to fail. I can now refer people to this thread, in passing, and the other one mentioned. this one has posters with known names and links to very impressive reels. It's not "just me" saying it anymore.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Does anyone know when this episode of House will air? As much as I disagree with choice of using the 5D to shoot an entire episode, I really do want to see how it looks.

Also, I would like to thank the moderators and everyone who posted for being civil and not getting this thread closed down and/or deleted.

Early May. My fear is that $400K of post-fixes, and a 90% shot throw-out rate (both of which we won't see, only the result) will fuel the hype, but I think it will look mediocre. Not horrible, just mediocre (after said $400K and shots removed).

 

[Rick Burnett]

DOES EXACTLY WHAT IT PROMISES TO DO.

Canon never promised me anything. Nor did Nikon which was the WORST camera purchase for DSLR I ever made (D90). But I fault myself on that purchase. I went into it knowing I was buying a still camera that also did video.

I'm just glad people are so hyped about video in general. In the end it is a win win for all those involved.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

Early May. My fear is that $400K of post-fixes, and a 90% shot throw-out rate (both of which we won't see, only the result) will fuel the hype, but I think it will look mediocre. Not horrible, just mediocre (after said $400K and shots removed).

I wonder though how it'll look as a heavily compressed web video? Or as a SD analog cable image? They may be banking on it being "good enough". Which brings me to an interesting point which I don't see raised much.

Most people see 24 and House as examples of the 5d being awesome, but 24 got canceled and House's ratings have been dropping significantly as well. This may be less of a show of strength for the 5d and more of a show of desperation on the part of producers trying to cut costs at, well, any cost.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Early May. My fear is that $400K of post-fixes, and a 90% shot throw-out rate (both of which we won't see, only the result) will fuel the hype, but I think it will look mediocre. Not horrible, just mediocre (after said $400K and shots removed).

But you are fueling an argument based on opinion. We do not throw out 90% of the shots we do because we know where and when to use the camera. (Though we do throw out shots). Unless they want to share that information, only you can determine how much work is required by experimenting yourself. Some people are okay with working with this source footage.

And really, at the end of the day, if they were happy spending whatever cost and pain to get the form factor and results they got, then so be it, then what is wrong with that? They wanted to do something different AND ride the buzz it generated. Kudos for them. They seized an opportunity to get interest in their show by a technology choice. I think that is brilliant. I'm going to watch this episode and I don't even watch house just to see how it looks!

Talk about free advertising! And we're doing it for them. Pure brilliance.

 

[Michael McVicar]

Early May. My fear is that $400K of post-fixes, and a 90% shot throw-out rate (both of which we won't see, only the result) will fuel the hype, but I think it will look mediocre. Not horrible, just mediocre (after said $400K and shots removed).

That's insane! 400K of post and 90% of production thrown out means they were willing to throw a LOT of money at this. Not trying to save a buck on camera direct costs.

 

[MastaMarek]

to be honest, I really dont understand this thread and the whole RED vs SLR discussions. the OP hates house as they shot an episode with the "forbidden" camera by the most "professional" DPs in the world and got good results. who cares!? I mean, does everyone here has the 13year old boy mentality where he/she has to have this specific toy otherwise its the end of the world for them!? none of those cameras will make anyone a better DP. I really find it funny that folks here that spent $50-100k on their RED one cameras have nothing better to do then complain about how a tv series is using this "devils" camera. Technology is always fun but its just technology in the end. Yes, the 5D users are human beings and they deserve a bit of respect as well, so why dont we just leave em alone and concentrate on RED cameras, instead of making these useless threads. DSLRS aren't going away anytime soon, deal with it, but plz do so in a manly fashion and not with the mentality of a 5year old boy that just lost his favorite toy or his mama didn't buy him a new video game. I'm sure you guys can do better. Its really not that hard.

 

[Rex Teese]

"Early May. My fear is that $400K of post-fixes, and a 90% shot throw-out rate (both of which we won't see, only the result) will fuel the hype, but I think it will look mediocre. Not horrible, just mediocre (after said $400K and shots removed)."

The 10 to 1 shot ratio you are talking about is pretty standard for tv, and we're not throwing them out, we're making creative choices. Secondly, having post produced tv for network, if the dp came in, said he wanted to shoot with a 5d, and after having done exhaustive testing of the post process needed to get that camera thru to delivery for air I discovered that it would cost anything more than 20% of the current cost of post, I'd give a negative recommendation to the Exec. producers of the show. If it was less than 20% I'd weigh the arguments for and against and give a recommendation. The choice to use the camera was not some arbitrary decision. Once it was suggested, the following had a chance for input: Post supervisor, Post producer, Executive Producer, show runner, Editor, any of 5 or 6 producers of varying levels, the DP, the gaffer, and since he's directed 17 other House episodes, the director. This was well thought out and likely cost nothing to a very little more than a normal episode.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Rob, the state of endurance under difficult circumstances, which can mean persevering in the face of delay or provocation without acting on annoyance/anger in a negative way; or exhibiting forbearance when under strain, especially when faced with longer-term difficulties.

 

[Stuart Hooper]

That's insane! 400K of post and 90% of production thrown out means they were willing to throw a LOT of money at this. Not trying to save a buck on camera direct costs.

I'm not sure we have confirmation that 400k was actually spent? Rather I believe it was a figure thrown out to illustrate a point? Please correct me if I'm wrong?

Also, out of curiosity, let's say such money could be thrown at a project...given the limitations in post that the 5D brings, can anyone tell me what could actually be done to 'fix' the footage? I mean we all have access to the NLE's and to a growing extent the color tools used on broadcast productions, right? So is it just hours and hours of talented colorists work? I guess what I'm pondering is...the 5D is either almost useless in post, or it can be fixed in post. If it can be fixed in post...what is it about endless money that makes it fixable in ways completely inaccessible to normal users? Sorry if I'm asking silly questions here, we just always talk about fixing it in post...I'm just wondering, aside from reshooting on the RED, what we'd be talking about here.

Frankly I think a talented colorist can do wonders with 5D footage...but it might not take 400 grand. The fellow from Raw-Works sure did an impressive job with Bloom's footage at their recent dust-up in Hollywood.

And with that said, of course if/and/or as soon as I can afford it, I'm going to grab an Epic...the MX footage and the pictures of the small package from NAB have me salivating!