House pisses me off

[Graeme Nattress]

Every camera has it's unique abilities and drawbacks. Through discussing cameras, we learn where they're optimally used and where they're not. By listening and participating in these discussions we learn how to make RED cameras suit more people and more usage situations.

Graeme

 

[Jason Ing]

It makes Redusers look like a bunch of fraternity fanboys with most of Hollywood laughing at silly threads like this.

Again, I'm surprised how long this thread lasted. Two previous threads about "house" and "canon" got shut down almost immediately. The explanation was that you can't talk about dslrs, red shouldn't have to waste time on threads like this, etc. etc.

The two previous threads were created with the tone of curiousity and interest. No bashing. No politics.

This thread clearly bashes. :smash:

And yet this thread is clearly allowed to exist by moderators.

Personally, the information, even the bashing kind, can be informative to a point. I'm not against free speech. Completely for it. Useful things can come out of dialogue.

I have the utmost respect for Jim, Graeme, & Red company.

Reduser, not so much anymore. I'll take a peek for announcements and good info, but I don't enjoy hanging out here anymore. Too inconsistent and hypocritical. But that's what I've been told. Just go somewhere else.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I think people are just tired of the RED/DSLR discussions. The topic has been discussed more than any other topic I can think of over the last year alone. It's not that it isn't a valid discussion point, it's just there is so much already written that if someone really wanted to discuss the merits of usage of these two general cameras, the prior arguments/threads are still valid, and searchable.

I agree however with the point that I've seen similar posts deleted/not deleted and don't see a pattern that makes obvious sense. I was disappointed when the other camera forum went away and pointed everyone to DVXUSER because frankly, I'd rather be on this site and not both. Or, at least if those posts were off-topic they'd have been put in off-topic. I guess we need an 'off-topic off-topic'

For Rob though, another user 'George D' pointed me to this:

http://poetzerofilm.com/2010/04/8-reasons-not-to-buy-a-dslr/

I think it's a pretty well laid out summary of most of the major problems with a DSLR and if you want something simple to show your clients, start with something like this. I was impressed with the quality of the write-up. It's something I am going to pass on to local cinematographers who are interesting in DSLR. This way, they will know what they are getting into.

 

[Jonas Nyström]

Every camera has it's unique abilities and drawbacks. Through discussing cameras, we learn where they're optimally used and where they're not. By listening and participating in these discussions we learn how to make RED cameras suit more people and more usage situations.

Graeme

WORD!

Still, 5D isn't a film camera, it's a still camera with some abilities to film. I have both the 5D end the RED end the competion is none. Obvious. Period. However it has is advantages as a run-and-gun camera (if you stand still ;-).

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

with most of Hollywood laughing at silly threads like this.

How many tests "DSLR vs. F35" or "DSLR vs. Genesis" have you seen ?

 

[M Most]

Broadcast over cable it would look terrible, as it does not re compress well...

That's a rather presumptuous statement considering you've probably never even seen the piece I'm referring to.

I also assume the prod had no establishing shots of brick buildings, or any of the hundreds of other things you can't shoot with a 5D.

No, no brick buildings (although it did have some brick building miniatures - does that count?). But it did contain loads of day exteriors in hot sunlight in a high desert environment. And for the most part, handled it pretty well.

 

[Martin Weiss]

This thread clearly bashes. :smash:

And yet this thread is clearly allowed to exist by moderators.

Personally, the information, even the bashing kind, can be informative to a point. I'm not against free speech. Completely for it. Useful things can come out of dialogue.

I have the utmost respect for Jim, Graeme, & Red company.

Reduser, […]. Too inconsistent and hypocritical. But that's what I've been told. Just go somewhere else.

So you want dialogue but also want us to close this thread?

Some threads get closed because they derail and end up in personal insults. This thread at times looked like it would take that route, but it also has some gems of information in it. I for one greatly appreciate the info on what specific situations can be troublesome for DLSRs.

Other threads get closed or deleted because they are too off-subject.

Other threads get closed/deleted for FUD. And not just against RED; we have had to restrain posters who said wrong things about other camera makers.

The most difficult threads are those about DLSRs, as they tend to spur emotions. In this thread I liked that some valid points were made, such as viewing circumstances, and who shot what for which reason.

Also remember that mods do this in their spare time, and it is weekend now. We are all working professionals. And we are all humans.

But I think for the price that Reduser charges, you get a lot of good, current information. And just as with everything else in life, for important decision you should always listen to more than one source. Neither would I buy an R1 solely because of a post on Reduser, nor would I dismiss buying one solely because of a post on CML.

 

[Sid Idris]

not so much irony as it is hypocrisy.

It's pretty ironic that you speak about the 5D the same way that a film or F35 fan would talk about Red. Not that I agree with them either.

The idea that good tools and good talent some how go together is pretty absurd. I can give you many examples of great talents using cheap tools and making great films. Also the notion that the price of a camera has any correlation to quality is fast becoming a thing of the past thanks to Moore's law.

When you consider that RedUser is a descendant of DVXUser, it's kind of silly that you would even post this here. I fail to see the difference between a 5D and something like an EX3 other than that the depth of field is painfully shallow, the camera shoots H264 instead of HDV, and the 5D is a lot harder to use. This trend isn't really something new. One of my favorite movies "Festen" was shot on a cheap Sony Digital Camcorder by one of our greatest DPs Anthony Dodd Mantel. Speaking as someone who's career has run a pretty wide spectrum of budgets, I can say pretty clearly that how much money you spend has very little to do with the quality of your final product. If that was the case than "The Room" would have been one of the best indy movies to come out that year.

Finally here's a list of ridiculously elitist things from your above post:
"There are lots and lots of amateurs out there." and we only have three more shotgun shells!!
"the no-budget-no-connections filmmakers" Wow dude.
"their pipe-dream of shooting a movie for $700 and having it look as good as Hollywood feature is not realistic" What's that got to do with you.
"I think it is destructive to our trade if we say we can shoot a major network show on a modern-day Bolex." Oh god the irony.

Sorry to be so combative. I just think your POV is not very constructive and has very little to do with the actual craft of cinematography that you hope to defend.

IBloom

 

[Sid Idris]

You know what pisses me off?

Camera bashing...

It's stupid and gets you nowhere. Cinematographers are entitled to shoot on a 24 fps pin-hole camera if that's the look they want.

• Red has it's own unique look
•*Alexa has it's own unique look
•*Canon has it's own unique look
• FlipHD Video has it's own unique look



People need to get over this dSLR camera bashing nonsense. It makes Redusers look like a bunch of fraternity fanboys with most of Hollywood laughing at silly threads like this.

The right tool for the right job should be every filmmakers motto. The moment you start caring about the tech over the story is the moment you lost at life

agreed. this thread smells of protectionism...

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

Ibloom:"Festen" was shot on a cheap Sony Digital Camcorder by one of our greatest DPs Anthony Dodd Mantel."

I love Tony and admire him in many ways, but to call him that is a stretch. That term should be used for people who can also light.
I love "Festen" but it was picturequality wise a pain to watch in the cinema in a way that did not especially serve the story. Those where the days of Dogma 95 and the use of a small DV camera was new and exciting and has made Tony a wonderful career, mostly because he has the ability to tell a story and is a very charming man.
I have that camera and I love it for what it can do.I have a 5D and I love it for what i can do. I have a RED One and I love it for what it can do.
I have shot sooo much 35mm and 16mm film and even a lot of Betacam, in the early days, and later IMX with an adapter.
S35 is King in many ways and S70mm is the ruler of the Universe.
They are still just tools.
I love them all for what I can do with them.
Choose the tool that matches your story/budget/abilities/ambitions.
Sometimes you can even choose a tool and shape the above for that.
Sometimes the rules of what is good and correct have to be broken.
Sometimes you can even be succesful doing that.
But its still just a tool that we use to tell stories.

Oh I se now that I should just have written" I completely agree with Richard Darge"!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Then welcome to capitalism and free markets...

Seems like you missed the point.

...everyone, even those with deep pockets, are free to do whatever they like...

Sure, but th...

nevermind.

 

[Rick Burnett]

They are just tools. Choose the tool that matches your story/budget/abilities/ambitions.
Sometimes you can even choose a tool and shape the above for that.
Sometimes the rules of what is good and correct have to be broken.
Sometimes you can even be succesful doing that.
But its still just a tool that we use to tell stories.

I think this is part of the disconnect. I see two main issues that seem to crop up during these sorts of conversations

(1) The quality the customer is satisfied with is not the quality the provider is satisfied with working in or delivering. In other words, the customer does not have the discerning eye to realize the value of the higher quality of the deliverable nor do they want to pay for it.

(2) The customer is unaware of how hard it is to obtain quality with whatever gear they want you to use, but want you to achieve a certain level of quality. I believe this is the intent of the original poster. In truth, no one both those working on any said project know how much pain went into the final production. This is VERY true with films having lots of VFX.

In the end, it's going to equalize. Those who get burned with loss of shots, extra work on the back-end, and failure to scope a DSLR shoot properly are going to go out of business because they aren't going to be able to afford what they are providing. It's an unfortunate aspect of technology shifts.

And you'll be there ready to pick up those poor clients that might have spent more in the end fixing broken material.

As a funny side story, I was filming a recent festival that I was hired to document and was shooting at night on the 7D. The BIGGEST problem I had was people thought we were shooting pictures! They'd be posing instead of being candid.

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

I think this is part of the disconnect. I see two main issues that seem to crop up during these sorts of conversations

(1) The quality the customer is satisfied with is not the quality the provider is satisfied with working in or delivering. In other words, the customer does not have the discerning eye to realize the value of the higher quality of the deliverable nor do they want to pay for it.

(2) The customer is unaware of how hard it is to obtain quality with whatever gear they want you to use, but want you to achieve a certain level of quality. I believe this is the intent of the original poster. In truth, no one both those working on any said project know how much pain went into the final production. This is VERY true with films having lots of VFX.

In the end, it's going to equalize. Those who get burned with loss of shots, extra work on the back-end, and failure to scope a DSLR shoot properly are going to go out of business because they aren't going to be able to afford what they are providing. It's an unfortunate aspect of technology shifts.

And you'll be there ready to pick up those poor clients that might have spent more in the end fixing broken material.

As a funny side story, I was filming a recent festival that I was hired to document and was shooting at night on the 7D. The BIGGEST problem I had was people thought we were shooting pictures! They'd be posing instead of being candid.

With experience comes the ability to choose the tool, taking EVERYTHING into account. You can do it backwards if you like. If your job calls for an EX1, use it. Its also an outstanding camera.

 

[Michael McVicar]

Here's a small part of mine:

Beards (look thicker than normal due to line-skipping)
Pans of busy scenes or long Steadicam shots (compression craps out)
Vehicles moving past the camera (Jello)
Fast pans (jello far worse than any other cam)
About 30% of all commonly found fabrics (moire)
Faces lit with dramatic fresnel (pores are overly accentuated by aliasing)
All buildings in focus/cityscapes (always some fine lines in there that will moire)
People with wrinkles in their foreheads or dark eyebrows with thicker hair strands (they can moire)
Any high detail scenes (look too soft and will crap-out compression)
Any fashion-client faces (small defects in skin and makeup, including freckles, over-accentuated by aliasing and unacceptable to myself and client)
Car grilles (moire)
High dynamic range shots (cannot really re-grade safely)
....

Hugh Laurie and Lisa Edelstein would not be a good candidates for this list.
I always liked the look and lighting of this show. The Cooke lenses are very flattering to the talent. I am sure the DP wanted to see if he could just because he can. This is a first.

I know that I and many people here will be watching to see if this talented crew can pull it off.

Overall House has always pushed creative envelopes. I don't think that this will become business as usual for many reasons stated here. It will be, been there done that. It is a sign of the change production is going through and points to directions people want to go.​

 

[Rob Ruffo]

You know what pisses me off?

Camera bashing...

It's stupid and gets you nowhere. Cinematographers are entitled to shoot on a 24 fps pin-hole camera if that's the look they want.

• Red has it's own unique look
•*Alexa has it's own unique look
•*Canon has it's own unique look
• FlipHD Video has it's own unique look



People need to get over this dSLR camera bashing nonsense. It makes Redusers look like a bunch of fraternity fanboys with most of Hollywood laughing at silly threads like this.

The right tool for the right job should be every filmmakers motto. The moment you start caring about the tech over the story is the moment you lost at life

Anyone back me up on an automatic delete of any post that yet again says "It's the story that matters" on this TECH FORUM!?

I think we all know the importance of a good script, thank you, you do not "enlighten" us with your "wisdom". Besides to say that about many TV commercials or performance-based music videos is silly. They're not exactly dialogue-heavy art films.

Again, if this is true, why are you on this forum at all? Why don't you go buy yourself a VHS camcorder on ebay and focus only on story?

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Again, if this is true, why are you on this forum at all? Why don't you go buy yourself a VHS camcorder on ebay and focus only on story?

Well, that's certainly an astute insight. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Rick Darge]

I'm confused Rob. Are you a cinematographer, a rental house or a troll?

Why does a television show that you don't even work on, shooting on a format you have no say in, bother you so much? Is it because you're worried that your clients will want a Canon over a Red now? Don't be worried man... Just do good work & you'll be OK...

And you missed my point about tech versus story. I was simply stating that any production or filmmaker has a right to shoot on whatever format they deem necessary, to serve the story. Real cinematographers test the hell out of their gear & have a full understanding of a systems limitations & strengths. If it works, it works. You can't stop the wave, you can only ride it.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Again, I'm surprised how long this thread lasted. Two previous threads about "house" and "canon" got shut down almost immediately. The explanation was that you can't talk about dslrs, red shouldn't have to waste time on threads like this, etc. etc.

The two previous threads were created with the tone of curiousity and interest. No bashing. No politics.

This thread clearly bashes. :smash:

And yet this thread is clearly allowed to exist by moderators.

Personally, the information, even the bashing kind, can be informative to a point. I'm not against free speech. Completely for it. Useful things can come out of dialogue.

I have the utmost respect for Jim, Graeme, & Red company.

Reduser, not so much anymore. I'll take a peek for announcements and good info, but I don't enjoy hanging out here anymore. Too inconsistent and hypocritical. But that's what I've been told. Just go somewhere else.

I did not intend to bash DSLRs or their users, people with less funds, or anything like that. DSLRs are great for many things, like learning with amateur projects.

The thread was set up to deal with a real problem Red owners and frequent renters are currently encountering due to misinformation. You don;t hear anyone speaking ill of mini-DV cameras because they are what they are, and clients do not have over-hyped expectations about them. If the thread bashes anything, it is misinformation itself, the hype, the wrongful perceptions that can end up bankrupting a prodco who spends much $$ on fixing or re-shooting a shoot the camera broke. Try telling a paying client who refuses to pay for his or her commercial that "it's the story that matters"..

 

[Rick Burnett]

Again, if this is true, why are you on this forum at all? Why don't you go buy yourself a VHS camcorder on ebay and focus only on story?

But I can't find any tapes! One of my friends picked up a JVC recorder like the one they used in the movie 'Back to the Future' at a garage sale a few years ago, man, the video quality was awful but the nerd factor was through the roof!

A lot of people on this forum I am sure don't even have a say in the story. They shoot the video, so really, it's not their focus in the first place (although I did post earlier there is a lot of crap out there).

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I'm confused Rob. Are you a cinematographer, a rental house or a troll?

Why does a television show that you don't even work on, shooting on a format you have no say in, bother you so much? Is it because you're worried that your clients will want a Canon over a Red now? Don't be worried man... Just do good work & you'll be OK...

And you missed my point about tech versus story. I was simply stating that any production or filmmaker has a right to shoot on whatever format they deem necessary, to serve the story. Real cinematographers test the hell out of their gear & have a full understanding of a systems limitations & strengths. If it works, it works. You can't stop the wave, you can only ride it.

I have no problem with people doing whatever - it's the client-confusing hype that bothers me. I am a DP-director. We don't rent gear except to our own shoots or shoots within our own private shared equipment "cooperative".

We need not ride any way we don;t like. 'Just ride the wave" is the definition of herd mentality and mindless conformity, the opposite of being a leader of integrity in your craft and in your community. Real heros do stop waves. I often fail, but I do try to be that hero in every aspect of my life.