House pisses me off

[Martin Weiss]

Thanks for keeping this discussion (almost) civil.

 

[Felix K.]

I agree with Rick. I watched it close-up with the audio industry while I was still working as an audio engineer. The consumer industry was trying to market Audio-DVDs, SACDs etc etc. People bought iPODs and downloaded 128 kbit files from Napster etc. and still do. iTunes has 192kBit files now, but that was mainly marketing and people really do not hear the difference. They never complained about the music not being recorded through a 1 million $ Neve deck either. SACD is no more, and I know nobody who owns a Audio DVD (maybe apart from a few high-enders that I mock by explaining what cables we used in the studio and how they were not golden or as thick as an arm).

The same is happening to the film industry right now. Everything that is not made for the big screen might end up being shot with an "o.k. quality" because the audience doesn't see the difference. Nobody know what a stereo triangle is and how to place your speakers accordingly, nobody know how your living room should be lit so that you actually see the color space of your Plasma while you are ironing or surfing the web with your netbook on your lap.
I understand that the rental houses are pissed about that. Panavision is probably pissed too about how the digital revolution coming faster than they've planned it. Only way to cope is to assimilate to the situation.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

I seem to remember Red M in Tungsten light showed about 8 stops in many tests, rather less if you rated the camera at 1000-2000 iso!

Wait, how does changing ISO to 1000-2000 change the cameras dynamic range ?
ISO is only metadata, so I can't see how that would have any influence on dynamic range...

 

[Erik Franzén]

There will always be a higher-end AND a lower-end. This is a fad. It will go away - unless Canon has something completely remarkable up their sleeve. Which, more than likely, they don't.

 

[K. cromwell]

Speaking on behalf of those who cannot afford a Red One, let alone an Epic, I can't help but be reminded of the same arguments I've heard over and over in the music industry with larger analog studios having a hard time competing with smaller digital studios with a lower cost basis, and in their opinion, inferior sound.

How is most music distributed today? MP3, Radio, Streamed? Quality? DEFINITELY lower. People don't demand high quality.

As someone else mentioned, the ironic part of all this is that film people DO say the same thing about the RED ONE. I was working on a budget for a full length film and the investors said absolutely NO to a RED ONE. They wanted us to shoot it on film (and still do, it's in pre-production). I pulled out of the project because of this.

It's the same argument. While the RED ONE output is acceptable for you (and me), for some it isn't. For many clients the 7D/5D is acceptable to them, not to you. You won't get an argument from me about the limitations of the 5D/7D as I have one as well, but this doesn't stop me from using my 7D on the weekends to make money shooting various things. I'm sorry this makes you mad, but I am giving people what they want. I have NEVER had a dissatisfied client so far with every 7D shoot I have done. That said, *I* have been dissatisfied on almost all of them as I've had to throw amazing shots away because the camera ruined them.

That said, what's going to happen when you have an Epic and I have a Scarlet S35 and can charge less as well given a MUCH lower cost basis? Are you going to complain why can't customers see the benefit of the Epic? The Epic is going to give YOU more latitude as a shooter. You can still make crap with an Epic, just as you can with film.

Times are changing and you are stuck in the middle of it. We are in a serious transition period in the video acquisition world and I am sure there are some pissed of 35mm film operators that people don't want to spend the money on doing real film anymore. Same shoe. I bet you probably took some business from them as well.

Sounds like to me you have the wrong clients though if they are so easily swayed towards technology. You want to show them the difference? then show them the difference! Prepare material that shows what value-add you offer with your setup. There are PLENTY of examples out there showing why using a 5D/7D is not a good solution. I wouldn't be on REDUSER if it were! It's not that hard to show value if you have value.

I can certainly understand your frustration, but I will say this, these are the growing pains of technology. While we wait for SUPERIOR cameras from RED right now, that's what it is. If you can't convince your clients easily of why RED is superior for what they want, why do you expect other people to do this? Just like when the 35mm DIY adapters came out and people shot some amazing things, I think people have shot some amazing things on the 7D. The FORM FACTOR is what I think drives a lot of it as well.

Imagine Epic/Scarlet with this same form factor. I personally CANNOT wait to start seeing the video from these all over the place!

Wow Rick valid points at the end it's what the client wants, even though in this case it seems it's what the shooter wants. Good point though I can attest.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Regarding the House episode, maybe we should wait to see it before criticizing ? They seem to have good reasons to have chosen that camera for that particular episode, so let's see how it turns out first, then we can discuss it. Let's not act like those morons that spread FUD all over the place about the Red One when it came out a few years ago.

I'm with Ian on this one, I'm pretty happy to see that big DPs and big Studios are open to trying new tools...

Truth is, 5Ds are great tools that can be fantastic if used wisely and for the right reasons, they can allow us to do stuff that wasn't possible before, because they are very cheap, very lightweight, even lower DoF than Red One or S35 film, high ISOs, can be used with a huge amount of cheap (compared to PL) and very good lenses, including stabilized lenses, etc...

But I also agree with all the issues mentionned above by others, the H264 compression is terrible, rolling shutter is a huge issue on quick pans, definition is very far from 1080P, aliasing and moire are very visible in wide high detail shots, and most of all it lacks of a lot of features that you'd expect even from the cheapest pro video camera... And you need to add a lot of accessories to make it usable as a decent camera.
That's why I'd absolutely avoid using them on any project where I can use a Red instead.
I also agree that there is a lot of misinformation about these cameras, and what they can really do.

I think the day the Scarlet starts shipping, a lot of people who have been working with 5Ds and 7Ds will make the switch to Reds. But for now they don't have that option, so for a lot of stuff right now it can be the best option available for their budget.

And by the way, I own a Red One and will get an Epic the day it comes out. Which doesn't mean I won't consider using an EX3, a 5D or anything else if there is a good reason to do so.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Wow Rick valid points at the end it's what the client wants, even though in this case it seems it's what the shooter wants. Good point though I can attest.

Unfortunately most of the time the client don’t know what he want and go with whatever he read on the internet or a "friend told me"……..or worst “House was shot on a Canon still camera, so I want to do the same” :yikes:

 

[Jim Retar]

Very ironic and elitist thread.

Rewind two years and you will find the exact same thing with RED v Film.

People were pissed that their $xxxxxx cameras were losing rental/production value to a camera that had problems/workaround (eg, offered less DR, operational problems, bad workflow etc etc.... yes, we know those issues are generally solved now).

Canon are doing what RED did.... they have just done it in a sub $4k market, rather than a sub $40k market.... that brings even more severe problems/workarounds.

If you like what R1 acheived.... you should applaud what Canon did too.

As for House.... they are not going to put their reputation on the line without serious testing.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Regarding the House episode, maybe we should wait to see it before criticizing ? They seem to have good reasons to have chosen that camera for that particular episode, so let's see how it turns out first, then we can discuss it. Let's not act like those morons that spread FUD all over the place about the Red One when it came out a few years ago.

I'm with Ian on this one, I'm pretty happy to see that big DPs and big Studios are open to trying new tools...

Actually seems they did some tests on "Lockdown” one of the most recent episodes. Notorious aliasing and moiré. At least what I was able to watch trough DirecTV.

But I also agree with all the issues mentionned above by others, the H264 compression is terrible, rolling shutter is a huge issue on quick pans, definition is very far from 1080P, aliasing and moire are very visible in wide high detail shots, and most of all it lacks of a lot of features that you'd expect even from the cheapest pro video camera... And you need to add a lot of accessories to make it usable as a decent camera.
That's why I'd absolutely avoid using them on any project where I can use a Red instead.
I also agree that there is a lot of misinformation about these cameras, and what they can really do.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

 

[Stephen Williams]

Wait, how does changing ISO to 1000-2000 change the cameras dynamic range ?
ISO is only metadata, so I can't see how that would have any influence on dynamic range...

Thats exactly the problem with R1, every stop you increase the ISO is a stop of DR lost, a Canon DSLR does it differently!

 

[Lee Saxon]

No, you clearly don't know me at all. I didn't say 5D footage looks good blown up or that the 5D compares favorably to higher-end cameras on overall image quality. I know that it doesn't, that's why I own a Red.

IBloom

I think what he's saying is that non-cinematographers don't know that. That some product director or producer sees a pretty Vimeo video and say "zomg pretty colors this will look awesome projected on an 80' theater screen, shoot the whole thing on a $2400 camera."

I don't know to what extent that's true, I'm just saying what I think his point was.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Very ironic and elitist thread.

Jim, this is a professional forum where we discuses technical aspects of digital filmmaking within a wide range of topics, mainly related to the Red cameras (that is why is called Reduser). I think is not polite call “elitist” to a group of professionals trying to understand why a high budget production will switch from film to a low quality digital format. That is the kind of sentences that move the moderators to close treads like this one.

 

[Stephen Williams]

I know they forbid DSLRs, very strictly, and as far as I know only accept EXs if used with Nanoflash, but I also hear this last rule is given more slack. Reds are 100% fine for 100% acquisition..

EX1's are only approved for SD production.
5D's Not approved for anything
Red is approved for use by Independent productions only

http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/production/hd.shtml

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

With respect, this "right tool for the job" argument is getting old. This is not about whether "House" production had their reasons or SNL or whoever. This is not about allowing more affordable tools, or more options.


It's about other serious productions brutally cheaping out and using ridiculous equipment for what it was not designed, with "well if it's good enough for "House" it's good enough for me" argument.

Not sure about your tests, I tested a Red V a 5DMKII, the director chose the 5D because of how it handled tungsten light & highlight roll off.

Not sure about the highlight roll off. First camera burns it in with a pre-set curve. With second, RAW acquiring one you can control highlight roll off.

Director choosing 5D over Red based on picture performance? Interesting...

 

[Von Thomas]

I personally know the HOUSE DP, I helped prep him for a Japanese commercial for Canon. The choices were RED or Canon 5DMKII. I personally would have preferred the RED, but the Canon was intriguing and after testing in the same environment that the commercial was going to be shot, they went with the 5D.

That set the stage for him to give the 5D a shot on the last episode of HOUSE.

Von

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Not sure what this is doing in the RED One - General forum, but an interesting read anyway.

My experience with the HDSLRs have been quite troublesome. At one point I convinced myself that it was my capabilities that were letting me down, but realized the only way to work with these cameras is to work around the limitations. Sadly, for me, these limitations are impossible to work with. All credit to DPs who can work around it. Let's not get into conspiracy theories like Canon paying House/DP off, etc. I think its a simple case of the DP convincing the top personnel in House that these cameras are indeed awesome (by playing at their strengths and specs, maybe?). "It has a frame size larger than 35mm!". It is true, technically. And then, you can shoot a well-lit close up with a shallow depth of field, and compare it to 35mm scanned at 2K (throw away half the information) side-by-side (throw away half of that - we are at quarter) to a 35mm strike print (throw even more information - 35mm is a poor projection format). And at that level, you are basically seeing less than 0.5K of each - and the 7D does perform at that level. Now, this is going to convince the non-technical people, no doubt.

Let's not forget too, that House is destined for the small screen.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Not sure about the highlight roll off. First camera burns it in with a pre-set curve. With second, RAW acquiring one you can control highlight roll off.

Director choosing 5D over Red based on picture performance? Interesting...

Enabling the Highlight Tone Priority & winding the contrast all the way down increased the DR of the Canon by 1.5 stops

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Thats exactly the problem with R1, every stop you increase the ISO is a stop of DR lost, a Canon DSLR does it differently!

Sorry, but no it isn't...

If you switch from 800 to 1600 ISO, you lose 1 stop of latitude in the shadows, but gain 1 stop of latitude in the highlights, and the overall dynamic range stays 100% the same. That's even more true now that we have the FLUT color science that avoids clipping when changing ISO, so you really keep all your DR at whatever ISO you chose.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Rewind two years and you will find the exact same thing with RED v Film.

People were pissed that their $xxxxxx cameras were losing rental/production value to a camera that had problems/workaround (eg, offered less DR, operational problems, bad workflow etc etc.... yes, we know those issues are generally solved now).

Canon are doing what RED did.... they have just done it in a sub $4k market, rather than a sub $40k market.... that brings even more severe problems/workarounds.

If you like what R1 acheived.... you should applaud what Canon did too.

Exactly my point.
These new cameras allow small budget shoots to get much higher quality than they could have afforded otherwise. A bit like Red did on a much higher level 3 years ago.

Regarding higher end productions going the 5D route, I fully agree it's not a good thing if they don't have a good reason for doing it. I also agree that there is a need to educate producers and directors on this matter, about the pros and cons of these cameras.
I'm really curious to see that House episode, let's wait and see how that turns out.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Sorry, but no it isn't...

If you switch from 800 to 1600 ISO, you lose 1 stop of latitude in the shadows, but gain 1 stop of latitude in the highlights, and the overall dynamic range stays 100% the same. That's even more true now that we have the FLUT™™ color science that avoids clipping when changing ISO, so you really keep all your DR at whatever ISO you chose.

As the noise floor increases, you loose usable DR. There is a reason why Kodak & Fuji make films with different ISO ratings!
I think you are confusing a feature with a benefit!