Hopefully I don't get in trouble for this!

[Erich Ocean]

Mark I see there being the issue of more expense for a FF sensor that will rarely be used.

FF sensors will rarely be used? Some of us are doing motion photography with RED and it's *critical* that larger sensors be coming down the pipe, in addition to more resolution and better dynamic range. Jim, PLEASE don't cancel the larger Monstro sensors, especially the FF and 645. There's a market for that.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Mark I see there being the issue of more expense for a FF sensor that will rarely be used. I would much rather see the R&D money go into enhancing the dynamic range of the sensor and so far all the DP's I had discussed it with felt exactly the same way.

Finner, as far as I know, dynamic range is what the next generation of sensors is really about. Plenty of R&D going into that.
Also, sometimes people like to shoot anamorphic...
Focus pulling issues can be dealt with sensibly.
Having to do FF35 on a Canon5D, if the director or DP wants that sensor size, aint a pretty thing for focus pullers.
You can shoot S35 on a FF35, if you have a high resolution chip.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

So there seems to be a lot of talk and excitement behind a full frame sensor. I for one would feel way to limited with a full frame sensor. Super 35 has become the cinema standard for productions because it has an inherent look that for some reason is just right. Dirty OS shots and staggered talent shots work very well with super 35's DOF. A
[...]
For me dynamic range is one of the biggest factors in a beautiful image and I believe the ability for exponential DR increases in sensors will be the final nail in the coffin for film.

As a patient Monstro customer I can offer my perspective on why I want FF35:

1) You can always crop but you can't shoot outside of a sensor. A FF35 is a FF35 and a S35.
2) Not everything is narrative. For VFX I want to shoot a lot of HDR fish eye shots. The more resolution the better since I'll be cropping in on the fish eye for background plates.
3) Bigger sensors are lower noise. More surface area = more photons = less noise. I can shoot in more conditions where a S35 sensor would be too noisy.
4) I love Anamorphic lenses. A s35 sensor tends to be 2:1 or 16:9. With a FF35 sensor I can shoot Academy 4:3 35mm and get the full anamorphic frame.
5) More Dynamic Range. With less noise you get a little extra usable dynamic range.
6) I really like wider angle lenses which tend to lose depth of field anyway so I could work with wider glass but more 'normal' depth of field.
7) More flexibility in rotating the image.

I see it kind of the opposite. I would feel way too limited with *just* a S35 sensor and not the option to go wide.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

As to the original speculation on Why Dragon, I imagine the plan all along was for the upgrade plan to be 'buy a new brain' but they also thought epics would be flowing by now. The longer epic is delayed the more obsolete Mx becomes. It's already been out for 12 months and it'll probably be on the market for 18 before all the orders are fulfilled. I know red didn't expect MX Epic to have such a short life span before Monstro. Since I bet all of the delays on the processing side didn't slow sensor R&D much they're going to have a new sensor nearly ready to release in tandem. I imagine there were a number of people who were thinking to just skip epic Mx--now they have no excuse to wait.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

So there seems to be a lot of talk and excitement behind a full frame sensor. I for one would feel way to limited with a full frame sensor. Super 35 has become the cinema standard for productions because it has an inherent look that for some reason is just right. Dirty OS shots and staggered talent shots work very well with super 35's DOF. A full frame sensor would really throw a lot of what has become such a nice look way off. This is definitely is a case of bigger not being better. Sure for epic nature and vistas a huge Imax sized sensor would be great but it also would be a very limiting tool. Now a super 35 sized sensor that has the advantages of raw color capture along with massive dynamic range capabilities; Well that's my ideal camera. For me dynamic range is one of the biggest factors in a beautiful image and I believe the ability for exponential DR increases in sensors will be the final nail in the coffin for film.

Again, could easily NOT be FF and just perhaps a higher DR/higher res version of the S35 chip. You make some great points, but one area where I agree with your perspective as well is lens coverage. If I get the Leica set then it won't fully cover FF and I will need to window down anyway to work with them.

What's interesting is that if the sensor IS actually FF and the upgrade path is so much easier, I think there may be enough Epics/demand to make it worth it for more cine lens manufacturers to release new sets with expanded coverage. Could be even more premium priced as I imagine it's more difficult to make a t1.4 Leica 16mm that covers full frame but oh the goodness there.

Finner, you obviously have way more experience than I do ... however, I think Gavin makes some great points -- with the inherent flexibility we have in how much much of the sensor we use, it won't be bad to have the option and go back and forth between FF and S35.

Anthony

 

[James Brundige]

IDLE SPECULATION: The limiting factor MIGHT BE data throughput. What's the bandwidth of the internal architecture of the Epic, and how will heat be removed if they double the number of pixels processed per second? That's why I wonder if a FF sensor can function in the S35 brain. Sure it does in a DSLR, but motion frame rates are what uses processors and generates heat. This is where Red is light years ahead of others with their software, but they will need one hell of an onboard computer to pass all that data that quickly enough.

I've been moving back and forth between FF and cropped for stills and have discovered FF is not always better. But it sure will be nice to have that option. One way or the other, it's not too far away.

 

[Fabricio Morato]

I think that the Dragon sensor UPGRADE will be S35 sized, and at the same time (or a little after) Red will be releasing the FF35 Epic with this same sensor technology. Just seems more logical doing this...

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Rampant, pointless and probably utterly incorrect speculation:

1. NAB, Dragon is announced.
2. NAB, no sign of RED electronic lenses. Not so much as a whisper or a hint - none that I've picked up on anyway.
3. Post-NAB, Jarred has this to say about electronic lenses: "everything has changed".

IF Dragon IS a FF35 upgrade (and/or a FF35 camera is to be released alongside Dragon) those developments *might* be linked: might it make sense for RED to hold/redesign the electronic lenses to cover the FF35 frame, if they're going with a FF sensor sooner than they expected to?

BTW here's one thing I took from NAB: I hope RED include a free Glock with every EPIC; having held one for the first time I'm in lust - people less honest than me are going to want to steal these things...!

Mike

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think that the Dragon sensor UPGRADE will be S35 sized, and at the same time (or a little after) Red will be releasing the FF35 Epic with this same sensor technology. Just seems more logical doing this...

However it shakes down it's going to be interesting to see what they do.

If it's the same sensor as Monstro FF35 and the same size it means the FF35 cameras are going to be getting a higher resolution chip than previously announced. If it's the same Monstro specs as before then they're probably going to be increasing the chip size by about 2mm from Epic to use 5k of monstro. Or Dragon is going to be based on Monstro tech but a third sensor all together using the old MX pixel size. But that seems kind of wasteful since they wouldn't be able to use the same sensors like they did with REDOne/Epic.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Seeing how everyone is taking a shot at reading between the lines, here goes... In 12 months for a service and an upgrade you will have a sensor which will have a higher dynamic range than alexa, without having to buy a new camera.
finnerdoesn'talwaysknowbest.com is also available.

 

[Erik Franzén]

A fun read, but here's the real question - why the hell is no one commenting on the completely absurdly awesome name DRAGON?! :thumbup1: :cheers2: