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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Hopefully I don't get in trouble for this!

Jannard said:
I'm lost on this one. You are afraid that an upgrade means that there won't be new "Brains" added to the system?
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My thought process was, "If there's still going to be a Monstro brain, why does the M-X brain need an upgrade path? Seems redundant."

Glad to hear you confirm that I'm wrong. Sorry.
 
I dont understand the disconnect here. The ability to upgrade your sensor is big news!

This was never promised nor announced for Epic. I think you guys are flat out greedy and have taken the term Obsolescence Obsolete too literal.

Not only is the fact that we can upgrade the sensor big news, but add Red's typical pricing structure and its bigger news.

Upgrading my Red One to an MX was a significant enhancement to the value and life of my camera, and now knowing I will have the same option down the road for my Epic is huge.
 
Lee Saxon said:
Jim says

But actually this announcement makes me fear the opposite. The whole point of the modular system was that you wouldn't need upgrades like Red Dragon because you could just buy the next brain. Now I'm wondering if Red's decided there won't be a "next" brain (especially for Scarlet, now that there's only one of them).
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Of course there will be new and better brains. The point is you won't have to buy another $30 K brain to stay with the latest sensor technology. And I think that is Big, New, Very Happy News.

Ketch, you're enthusiasm is great, but no one said a FF sensor would fit into the current Epic body. It would be very cool, but I'm guessing the data throughput for that many more pixels would need a whole new brain. But who knows? Maybe a couple new boards and it would work. I won't hazard any guesses on Dragon MP or DR, because someone will take it as fact and someone else will complain about it.

I'm working in Argentina now, and I've spent a lot of time on Reduser this week to experience the show vicariously. I have to say I've been quite astounded by the tone of some threads and how much disinformation tends to pile up. Jim and Ted do very well to keep it positive.
 
My heart goes out to Mr. Jannard. After all the hardships and seemingly endless delays there was finally light at the end of the tunnel: "by end of summer", he announced, proudly (and deservedly so).

Then Mother Nature shrugged its shoulders, and millions of voices cried out in terror.

I'm sure a lesser man would have at that point taken an item powered by the rapid burning of confined propellant and re-painted the bathroom wall in crimson. Reading between the lines of Mr. Jannard's latest missives, I get a mental image of him sighing deeply, then setting his jaw and turning to face the shitstorm with the air of a man daring his adversary to break him. But it won't -- and we're all richer for that.

I'm in Stage 3.5. Never did I think for a moment I could have a new sensor in my EPIC without buying a whole new brain. Guess what? I can. That's why Dragon is a big deal.
 
Rob Gardner said:
I'm afraid I think Finner's analysis here is right up there with his enthusiasm for the fabulous Carrion monitor. And really I think there are some people who would only be happy if they were shown 5K footage of Jim actually walking on water. The only PR competition Red is having is with itself. Nobody, but nobody in the camera business does what these guys do. From the point of view of an actual customer, the chip upgrade is very big news and very good news. Red is just a camera company, a very good camera company doing the best it can with a lot of difficulties right now, difficulties that are way beyond it's control.
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OUCH! Okay I will give you that the carrion monitor was one nasty fiasco. That said at the time it came out that monitor was easily one of the best monitors offered and at a great price point. Unfortunately I was unable to know that the owner of the company would run things so poorly. I have owned a few companies and I bet Jim would even agree with me that you work so hard to get customers that when they come you do everything in your power to deliver at minimum what you have promised or better in a timely manner. So it was as big a surprise for me as it was for others that the person would drop the ball so badly and then run for the hills. I do feel very badly for ever doing a review and recommending the carrion monitor. We took the review off the finner knows best site as soon as we got wind of what was going on to their customers. Rob if you were one of the people that got stung by that product I'm sorry and I hope you and others can forgive me for reviewing it and recommending it. Since that incident we have taken steps to try and never let that happen again.

Oh ya, I still stand by my statement that the red announcement this year was not much of an announcement. Personally I suspect the announcement red wanted to make or product they wanted to unveil at NAB got messed up with the Japan tragedy. Which would explain why the red short film was thrown together in such short order and why the announcement seems less then exciting. For any other company the same announcement would be a big deal but by "obsolescence, obsolete" Red it is kinda taken for granted.

cheers
Daren
 
Yeah, Finner, as a matter of fact I was one of the guys that got burned for a couple of thousand by that little operation you were cheerleading for (not that I’m bitter). And unless I’m mistaken, it took you until this post to mention on Reduser that Carrion was a problem (not that I’m a sorehead, or anything).

But you are still out of line with this post. The facts are that Red is a small company that has already had a major impact on our industry by sheer will power, vision and I’m guessing a lot of amphetamines or something else in place of sleep. They already have produced a camera that many people thought was impossible. They already offered customer service options absolutely unheard of as far as upgrades and trade-ins go. Their corporate bearings were already smoking trying to make the deadlines for a newer technology when the roof fell in as a result of the Japanese earthquake. And then they offered another big chip upgrade.

And so you are unhappy with their PR moves? Their message strategy? Give it a rest. I’m very happy to take the chip upgrade and the Epic X whenever they can get around to it.
 
Rob Gardner said:
Yeah, Finner, as a matter of fact I was one of the guys that got burned for a couple of thousand by that little operation you were cheerleading for (not that I’m bitter). And unless I’m mistaken, it took you until this post to mention on Reduser that Carrion was a problem (not that I’m a sorehead, or anything).
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First off I didn't cheer lead anything, I did a professional review of what was a very good monitor for no money. Also I did mention on here that I had heard from a few customers that there was a problem with carrion as soon as we were informed of it. We make no revenue for the site other then a little bit of money we get for advertising on the NAB map we put together and when you add that up it works out to less then a penny an hour for our time.

Unfortunately your bitterness seems to be hindering you to forgive me. I will pray for you.

cheers
Daren
 
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OK, Finner whatever you say. I see you have a sense of humor too...
 
I've got to say, not as a fanboy, but as someone who is running a newer business, doesn't have money to burn, and invested in Red from the outset, the Red Dragon announcement is a VERY welcome surprise. Like everyone else, our main focus here is on getting Epic and on all of the great things that will mean for our business. But it's very exciting to hear that when the time comes we'll likely have the chance to do a simple sensor upgrade to keep our camera skating on the bleeding edge of technology, as opposed to shelling out $35k for the benefits of the latest sensor tech. I suppose the gravity of the announcement all depends on your specific situation. For us as a small but growing business, one option is attainable the other is not. So I for one am excited and thankful that Red has continued to take care of it's early adopters and customers in general.

Just my 2 cents,

Omar
 
I see both sides of this ... on one side, we are so spoiled by Red's generosity -- that we take these unprecedented offerings as "nothing special." On the other hand, it seemed that the Epic products mapped out and we would clearly need to get a new brain if we wanted to upgrade. If the Dragon sensor is indeed FF (some are speculating, Red is not saying) -- then I think it's HUGE because I think many, MANY here were for sure going to go FF as soon as it was available ... some were even going to wait. Having a clearly and radically more affordable upgrade pathway (the difference between $5-10,000 for the new sensor vs $30-40,000 for the new "FF" brain) is crazy savings for us.

Of course, we don't know yet -- but to me it was fantastic news. I think also -- if we read between the lines -- it means Red will could very well have sensor upgrade programs even for future brains like the 617, etc. It's exciting.

Perhaps not the jaw-dropping, earth-shattering announcement some of us expected, but I am happy I went and very impressed ...

Anthony
 
I thought those that got Carrion were super happy with them? The problem was lack of communication and massive delays?

Anyway, the dragon sensor thing is great, it wasn't expected given the stages and so forth so it was a nice surprise,
I'd be more then happy to upgrade my sensor to whatever the Dragon Program would offer,

Though just a bit off topic, say it is the FF35 sensor (not the specs just the size etc.) thats obviously bigger then the current sensor right? So in turn, does that mean that the lenses now would have big enough coverage for the whole sensor? Just curious cause to invest in lenses now and then pay for the upgrade and get any vignette would kind of suck to put it simply.

Obviously I know zilch on lenses and the coverage etc. so sorry in advance if im talking rubbish, was just a side question :)
 
If the Red Dragon sensor upgrade is anything like the leap made by the Mysterium-X upgrade then it'll be worth every penny - the M-X was like getting a new camera for less than the price of an EX1. If the Dragon provides a similar leap it'll mean the next gen FF35 Monstro brain will have a lot to live up to and will have to really "bat it out of the park" in terms of specs and image quality, which leaves us Red owners in a win-win situation.

As a sidenote it's also pretty green/eco-friendly (not to mention economical) not to have to replace an entire camera system (eyepice, LCD, memory module, I/O etc) when getting a new camera - and a sensor upgrade is even more true in this respect (not even any need for a new brain!).
 
So there seems to be a lot of talk and excitement behind a full frame sensor. I for one would feel way to limited with a full frame sensor. Super 35 has become the cinema standard for productions because it has an inherent look that for some reason is just right. Dirty OS shots and staggered talent shots work very well with super 35's DOF. A full frame sensor would really throw a lot of what has become such a nice look way off. This is definitely is a case of bigger not being better. Sure for epic nature and vistas a huge Imax sized sensor would be great but it also would be a very limiting tool. Now a super 35 sized sensor that has the advantages of raw color capture along with massive dynamic range capabilities; Well that's my ideal camera. For me dynamic range is one of the biggest factors in a beautiful image and I believe the ability for exponential DR increases in sensors will be the final nail in the coffin for film.
 
Finner said:
So there seems to be a lot of talk and excitement behind a full frame sensor. I for one would feel way to limited with a full frame sensor. Super 35 has become the cinema standard for productions because it has an inherent look that for some reason is just right. Dirty OS shots and staggered talent shots work very well with super 35's DOF. A full frame sensor would really throw a lot of what has become such a nice look way off. This is definitely is a case of bigger not being better. Sure for epic nature and vistas a huge Imax sized sensor would be great but it also would be a very limiting tool. Now a super 35 sized sensor that has the advantages of raw color capture along with massive dynamic range capabilities; Well that's my ideal camera. For me dynamic range is one of the biggest factors in a beautiful image and I believe the ability for exponential DR increases in sensors will be the final nail in the coffin for film.
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I think there's a place for both. Certainly if my experience with crappy DSLRs is anything to go by. Certain shots look knockout in FF. Others are more easily accomplished in S35. I think most productions would run with the full range of sensor sizes including 2/3rds - it's modular after all...
 
I agree with you Liam that there is definitely a place for both. I just see the place for super 35 being easily 10 times that of FF. Also shooting with FF would cause a lot of needless focus-puller suicides.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Well, I agree with a lot of that. For me, there was no surprise in that RED is working on a new sensor -- duh! We all knew about Monstro and future sensor program, etc..

The big deal here is that we have all been told our sensors in the new DSMC brains are not upgradeable, however the RED Dragon will be offered as an upgrade to Epic-M and Epic-X. Nice surprise. Of course, we'll have to see what all the details are when the time comes. I'm still curious about FF35 and 645 model Epic cameras and if they're close in release to RED Dragon, then it becomes a question of whether or not to upgrade the Epic-X sensor or to sell that brain and upgrade to the new on with larger sensor, presumably more processing and abilities, etc.. Time will tell.

I'm sure that planned announcements for NAB changed drastically for RED (and other manufacturers), given the tragic events in Japan.

EDIT> Hah, seems Jim and Ketch must have clicked "post" about the same time I clicked "reply".
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Exactly, and Jim mentioned a while ago somewhere on reduser that monstro models would have HDRX, but that it would work in a slightly different way to the MX model, which could also be significant.. and will it translate to Epic-M/X? ..so.. this is all to be clarified later, but I'm personally glad Monstro is an option, it is big news.

I'm still lusting after those bigger FF photosites, and hopefully a 16bit+ .r3d .
 
Mark I see there being the issue of more expense for a FF sensor that will rarely be used. I would much rather see the R&D money go into enhancing the dynamic range of the sensor and so far all the DP's I had discussed it with felt exactly the same way.
 
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