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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HOPE

J

Jon MIchael Puntervold

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I hope the Dragon will bring the look/"feel" of Red footage somewhere between the Alexa and the current Epic. The Alexa is too stylized and soft to my taste, and the current Epic is a bit "hard"/too natural to my taste.

I like a lot of the original M footage I've seen, the contrast curve seems a bit more "natural" or closer to the Alexa look people like, although I understand that the sensor was not as versatile as the current ones.

I hope Dragon will bring the esthetic wow factor back in Red. The sharpest and most beutiful cinematic images money can by. As far as I'm concerned, it's almost a necessity with low cost cinema cameras such as the black magic one around the corner...

And the Alexa is eating up the rental marked...

I trust Red, I've spent a lot of money on the new Red cameras. And I earn money on them, but I hope, I really hope that Dragon will fix all the current issues (i.e. magenta highlights) and bring us an image that is undoubtably the best option for the DP. I really understand the love for the Alexa's easy beauty, like traditional film. But it's a bit to much "look" in it, for my taste. But something between the current Epic and the Alexa.
Dream, dream, dream. Creamy dream.
 
Hi Jon...

While I do agree that the M is a "better" sensor on the R1 on than the MX for a number of reasons, I don't think that is the case with the Epic.

We should talk soon!

Hope to see you and work through some stuff...


G
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
I hope the Dragon will bring the look/"feel" of Red footage somewhere between the Alexa and the current Epic. The Alexa is too stylized and soft to my taste, and the current Epic is a bit "hard"/too natural to my taste. I like a lot of the original M footage I've seen, the contrast curve seems a bit more "natural" or closer to the Alexa look people like, although I understand that the sensor was not as versatile as the current ones.
Click to expand...

I believe this look is all adjustable and controllable in post to a large degree, assuming a good colorist and good color-correction software (and of course, a good exposure and image on the original files). To me, we're getting to a point where these different cameras are kind of like choosing different film stocks in the photochemical days. 100ASA, 200ASA, 320ASA, and 500ASA films all had their own specific looks, as did Kodak vs. Fuji. These can be evened-out to a point in post, but they do each have certain subtle characteristic looks to them.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Hi Jon...

While I do agree that the M is a "better" sensor on the R1 on than the MX for a number of reasons, I don't think that is the case with the Epic.

We should talk soon!

Hope to see you and work through some stuff...


G
Click to expand...

Hi Gunleik!

You've already stated that you think the original M sensor is better in the RED ONE than the MX... I'm quite interested if you could explain why you think so? Even we all know that the MX has a couple more stops of dynamic range (I'm I right?) and a better sensitivity (800 ASA) and a lower noise floor... I'm really interested, 'cause I still own a RED ONE with the original M sensor.

Cheers!
 
Beauty is the eye of the beholder...

But of course you are right. From a technical measurement the MX is largely overall a "better" camera.
To me it feels like it is a bit "pushed beyond its computing limits" on the MX, leading to amongst others less "meat" and gentility in skintones and gradients.

I really like the MX, too. But it feels a bit more "unorganic". That is of course partly due to less noise, but I don't think that is all that is to it.
I still find the M and MX R1s very easy to match when shot for their common sweetspots.

The MX feels "thinner" and falls off quite rapidly in the bottom and is also not so nice (methinks) in the last stop before clip.
It feels a bit "underpowered" for lack of better words.

Not that you cannot make beautifull images with it.
Just saying that you can that with the M, too and that it opens for some "other" gently toned imagery. Even though it hates to be overexposed too much and gets noisy in the bottom earlier. I still like what I get from it.

On the Epic (OTOH)
There is just so much more info. You have to choose how you weigh it to get it as gently out as the M (if that is what you desire) But it is possible by far.
 
Does the MX sensor board use log encoding for 14bit data saved as 12bit, and the M sensor board encodes 12bit linear sensor data as 12bit in the recording?

I noticed when MX came out that there were people that noted more banding in the sky and such as that is what might be expected from log encoding as there would be less data in the highlights, less of an issue at higher ISO but somewhat noticeable at the lowest ISO maybe.

If it was mostly the encoding that changed then are the M and MX sensors more or less the same item?

The net result is that if the sensor is the same, then shooting 320 with linear encoding 'could' look more solid than 800 with log encoding, perhaps, and that might be what you are seeing.

The log encoding would work better maybe for 800 because of the wavelet issues with low exposure levels, when you log encode you get the values at ISO 800 up where they would have been for linear ISO 320 so you avoid the shadow issues to some degree, that is ISO 3200 should look better with log encoding 14bit than linear encoding 12bit.

If the new Epic 6K model has a selection for linear OR log encoding, then you would have a choice of the impact of REDCODE (tm) on the images rather than being stuck with just one burned in look, maybe.
 
AFAIK RED does not use log encoding. The trick of getting 13.5 stops out of a 12 bit linear AD (that was touted a lot early on) is a bit of whizzardry, that I think is what I see as the main different on the MX and M on the R1.

The Epic OTOH has the data overhead to eat those stops linearily + VAT, which I think is a very noticeable difference in post between the two, + highlightshandling and lowlightshandling. Not neccesarily "noise" per se, but the way it gently gets up and down being "fat" all the way.

Love the MX on the Epic...

G
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
I hope the Dragon will bring the look/"feel" of Red footage somewhere between the Alexa and the current Epic. The Alexa is too stylized and soft to my taste, and the current Epic is a bit "hard"/too natural to my taste.

I like a lot of the original M footage I've seen, the contrast curve seems a bit more "natural" or closer to the Alexa look people like, although I understand that the sensor was not as versatile as the current ones.

I hope Dragon will bring the esthetic wow factor back in Red. The sharpest and most beutiful cinematic images money can by. As far as I'm concerned, it's almost a necessity with low cost cinema cameras such as the black magic one around the corner...

And the Alexa is eating up the rental marked...

I trust Red, I've spent a lot of money on the new Red cameras. And I earn money on them, but I hope, I really hope that Dragon will fix all the current issues (i.e. magenta highlights) and bring us an image that is undoubtably the best option for the DP. I really understand the love for the Alexa's easy beauty, like traditional film. But it's a bit to much "look" in it, for my taste. But something between the current Epic and the Alexa.
Dream, dream, dream. Creamy dream.
Click to expand...

Oh my... You miss guided soul... I do feel so sorry for you. Not knowing how to make RED images look like Alexa images... It's so easy.

Send me an ALEXA shot, And I'll match it perfectly.. send me a SONY F65 shot and Ill match it perfectly...
I've shot so many TVC's with mixed camera footage coming in these days, from Alexa, Phantom, Canons, Epics, ... and we grade them all up the same. I can pull RED back to any of these other formats...

I cannot believe that you have written this to be honest... ? I've never ever seen this super amazing ALEXA footage that people keep telling me about. I have a lot of it here now stored away in hard drives and it does not look any better than anything else. ?

paused...
ok, Im back...
I'm looking at a string of ALEXA footage right this second, just dragged it up in Premier and I have quite literally dropped a 5k EPIC file next to it... Same shoot, different cameras, different lens.... I'm now spending 30 seconds on grading it to match the Alexa footage. Done.. Perfect. now they are the same. Not very hard... I had to blur the RED footage 1 pixel... as the Alexa footage is no were as sharp... but over all... the tones are identical.
Colour temp a bit warm in the Alexa footage to start with... But hey, it's a colour baked Pro res.. what do you expect. , but still looks fine.

Now I couldn't get the Alexa footage to look as sharp or as clean as the EPIC footage, reason why is because EPIC shoots images 4 to 5x the size of Alexa standard output.

NOW!... If your not grading your footage at all... and just transcoding and using as is, or just using the ALEXA footage as is... not grading that either... Then Alexa has a nicer standard colour lut... But when you get into a grading situation, The EPIC runs rings around PRORES Alexa footage for colour and gamma range... Fact. Why... because one is 10 or 12 bit Prores at MAX res HD... and the other is 16bit, 12 milllon pixels RAW.... So of course to be fair to the Alexa you will have to degrade the RED RAW files to get them down to Alexa spec and look... But once again, so so simple to do.

It's so so easy to drag EPIC footage back to ALEXA spec... Almost impossible for Alexa to look like RED EPIC footage.

pub.jpg
 
Mark Toia said:
Oh my... You miss guided soul... I do feel so sorry for you. Not knowing how to make RED images look like Alexa images... It's so easy.

Send me an ALEXA shot, And I'll match it perfectly.. send me a SONY F65 shot and Ill match it perfectly...
I've shot so many TVC's with mixed camera footage coming in these days, from Alexa, Phantom, Canons, Epics, ... and we grade them all up the same. I can pull RED back to any of these other formats...

I cannot believe that you have written this to be honest... ? I've never ever seen this super amazing ALEXA footage that people keep telling me about. I have a lot of it here now stored away in hard drives and it does not look any better than anything else. ?

paused...
ok, Im back...
I'm looking at a string of ALEXA footage right this second, just dragged it up in Premier and I have quite literally dropped a 5k EPIC file next to it... Same shoot, different cameras, different lens.... I'm now spending 30 seconds on grading it to match the Alexa footage. Done.. Perfect. now they are the same. Not very hard... I had to blur the RED footage 1 pixel... as the Alexa footage is no were as sharp... but over all... the tones are identical.
Colour temp a bit warm in the Alexa footage to start with... But hey, it's a colour baked Pro res.. what do you expect. , but still looks fine.

Now I couldn't get the Alexa footage to look as sharp or as clean as the EPIC footage, reason why is because EPIC shoots images 4 to 5x the size of Alexa standard output.

NOW!... If your not grading your footage at all... and just transcoding and using as is, or just using the ALEXA footage as is... not grading that either... Then Alexa has a nicer standard colour lut... But when you get into a grading situation, The EPIC runs rings around PRORES Alexa footage for colour and gamma range... Fact. Why... because one is 10 or 12 bit Prores at MAX res HD... and the other is 16bit, 12 milllon pixels RAW.... So of course to be fair to the Alexa you will have to degrade the RED RAW files to get them down to Alexa spec and look... But once again, so so simple to do.

It's so so easy to drag EPIC footage back to ALEXA spec... Almost impossible for Alexa to look like RED EPIC footage.
Click to expand...



Ha ha, more and more I like your posts Mark, you save mine so much time form posting my self.. ;)


Only think I'll add...


For me ALEXA and other cameras out there VS. RED EPIC, is like comparing a man with ONE EYE ONLY, with a MAN with BOTH.


If I have a RED EPIC, I have TWO EYES, so I see with no compromises, if I want to see not as good, I simply close ONE EYE, and then its like been an ALEXA or every other camera out there...

But the only difference is that while the RED EPIC can be made to see as they do, they DON'T HAVE A second EYE to OPEN and SEE like EPIC does... ;)
 
The comparison most people do of Red to Alexa is based on the video tap to on set monitors. They just don't understand this is like comparing the SD video tap of a 35mm film camera to the video out on an SD video camera. The engineer tweeks the setting in that video camera so that signal looks the best it can and that is the best that image is ever going to look. Only an idiot would think the image from the video tap on the film camera is the best that film can look. That is what I see people do on set all the time.

A friend of mine just called me from a color suite. Mixed Red and Alexa shoot. On set they decided Alexa rec709 was way better than generic Epic, so they recorded rec709. So my friend graded some of the Red footage real quick and they were amazed at how good it looked. He then brought up some of the Alexa footage and show them their error. Even with Log-C Alexa is not a flexible as Red Raw.

I sometimes wish Red only had an SD output.


Dusty
 
Ok but to Jon's defense, the problem is agencies are highering producers and DPs who are not very technical and do not worry or think of color correction. In their mind they need to have the prettiest picture out of the box right away. It is so frustrating as we are constantly fighting an trying to educate those agencies and DPs that the Epic is a much better choice but they simply refuse to listen for now. (that is the same people who also are stuck in working in FCP and refuse to consider working in anything but prores...how can an industry based on technology be so technologically dumb??? ;) ) Redcolour3/redgama3 is a step in the right direction as far as look. maybe someone needs to have an Alexa preset look available for download so we can load it into our camera look and make those short sighted producers/DPs happy...
 
Maz Mawlawi said:
Ok but to Jon's defense, the problem is agencies are highering producers and DPs who are not very technical and do not worry or think of color correction. In their mind they need to have the prettiest picture out of the box right away. It is so frustrating as we are constantly fighting an trying to educate those agencies and DPs that the Epic is a much better choice but they simply refuse to listen for now. (that is the same people who also are stuck in working in FCP and refuse to consider working in anything but prores...how can an industry based on technology be so technologically dumb??? ;) ) Redcolour3/redgama3 is a step in the right direction as far as look. maybe someone needs to have an Alexa preset look available for download so we can load it into our camera look and make those short sighted producers/DPs happy...
Click to expand...

It doesn't really matter at the end of the day... A picture is a picture... but to be honest, i like my competition farting around within the Alexa. It keeps them of my tail... :)
 
Maz Mawlawi said:
Ok but to Jon's defense, the problem is agencies are highering producers and DPs who are not very technical and do not worry or think of color correction. In their mind they need to have the prettiest picture out of the box right away. It is so frustrating as we are constantly fighting an trying to educate those agencies and DPs that the Epic is a much better choice but they simply refuse to listen for now. (that is the same people who also are stuck in working in FCP and refuse to consider working in anything but prores...how can an industry based on technology be so technologically dumb??? ;) ) Redcolour3/redgama3 is a step in the right direction as far as look. maybe someone needs to have an Alexa preset look available for download so we can load it into our camera look and make those short sighted producers/DPs happy...
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying Dustin. Working in rentals we have a lot of work come through that wants to just get a "finished" product out of the camera. I believe this isn't an issue of education all of the time but an issue of turn around times. If they need it finished and on the web or on tv in two days they may not want to deal with transcoding and intensive color correction. I know a lot of you may not think it's right, but clients want to tell you how they work and have you give them a solution or system that will fit into their work flow, not be dictated to on how they should work.

Instead of grading Epic footage to look like Alex in post, I would have been more impressed if some one had filtered and used in camera settings to get it to match.
 
Stephen Wheeler said:
I agree with what you are saying Dustin. Working in rentals we have a lot of work come through that wants to just get a "finished" product out of the camera. I believe this isn't an issue of education all of the time but an issue of turn around times. If they need it finished and on the web or on tv in two days they may not want to deal with transcoding and intensive color correction. I know a lot of you may not think it's right, but clients want to tell you how they work and have you give them a solution or system that will fit into their work flow, not be dictated to on how they should work.

Instead of grading Epic footage to look like Alex in post, I would have been more impressed if some one had filtered and used in camera settings to get it to match.
Click to expand...

Which isn't really too hard to do, and methinks gives much better results than a pure post-match.

Add a lowcon and some diffusion to the Epic and you are there by a far cry, that will also take off some of the "edge" to the RED footy that some dislike and gives more Alexa-like rollouts in the top . Hopefully without giving the more toneless skintones of the Alexa... (which BTW are the two parameters - not colometry - that made me guess that #2 was Epic)
 
I don't care what you say Mark - when it comes to insults. But maybe you are right, maybe most Red owners are just shitty photographers, and don't know how to correct their footage, but I does not help me when I want to rent out my cameras to people who would rather use Alexas, or when many of the world finest DP's (at least in Europe) don't use MX based cameras any more.

Maybe many of the Red shot films are made by people who have very different taste than myself, for example, I think both The Great Gatsby and the last Pirates of the Caribbean looks like shit, and I saw both Drive and Melancholia in Lumiere last year, and wow. Prometheus looks fantastic, and Alexa would not suite it, though.

I've not yet had time to test my cameras (a scarlet and an epic) for finding a look I like, but I'm confident I'll find it, but I'll probably need to do some research on lenses. Maybe I'll also find that my starting post in this thread is delusional, who knows.

Mark, can you make some Red footage look like the footage in Drive?
 
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I still think (if we think of sensors as film stock) that a Dragon somewhere between the current Epic and the Alexa sensor would be great.
 
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