HMI (LOOKING FOR BIG BOY LIGHTS)

[francisco santos]

Hi,
So I own a few joker 800, 1600 hmi, tungsten lights etc…..what Im looking to do is buy some big boy lights that I plan on renting as well as using for my own shoots. I have about 100k to spend I know I can get a couple. What would you suggest for an outdoor daylight kit. I know Im going to need some sort of generator in that price as well. Its not a ton of money but should get me started. I know 100k isnt alot when it comes to big lights.

2 M40
2 m18

Is 4k enough light outside? Not sure what is out there above 4k? I am covered with my indoor lights so these would be to mainly punch through windows and outdoor day/night use.

thanks,
Frank

 

[David W. Jones]

Frank, If it were me and I was going to purchase large HMI's and a towable generator for rental, I would poll my client base and find out first hand their rental needs.

And to answer your other question, is 4K enough light outside? Depends on the job. I have crewed on many jobs where we used 12/18K HMI's. As a side, be sure to include extra lamps into your purchase. Nothing like having a $2500 lamp go south without a replacement available in town.

All the best!

Dave

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Hi,
So I own a few joker 800, 1600 hmi, tungsten lights etc…..what Im looking to do is buy some big boy lights that I plan on renting as well as using for my own shoots. I have about 100k to spend I know I can get a couple. What would you suggest for an outdoor daylight kit. I know Im going to need some sort of generator in that price as well. Its not a ton of money but should get me started. I know 100k isnt alot when it comes to big lights.

2 M40
2 m18

Is 4k enough light outside? Not sure what is out there above 4k? I am covered with my indoor lights so these would be to mainly punch through windows and outdoor day/night use.

thanks,
Frank

What Dave said. Thing to consider would be to get the high speed ballasts, so you could cover higher frame rates. You can run the M40 with 2,5K bulbs and the M18 can be equipped with 1200W to add some flexibility. M18 could mostly run in normal environments while the M40 draws too much power. To answer the question of enough light, think about two joker 1600 in parallel for a M40, roughly in the same ballpark. Probably not enough for all tasks but can be also too much for other ones. Bigger HMI are 6K, 9K, 12K, 18K. HTH.

Cheers

Ulf

 

[Mark K.]

For a real big boy light, I don't think you'd want anything smaller than an M90 (that's where you start to get some small chance of fighting the sun). You could probably get an M90, two M40s, two M18s and a gennie for $100k. Which combined with your smaller fixtures would offer a pretty comprehensive package.

But I agree with David. Don't go blowing $100k on lights until you know your client base both want them, and are willing to pay for them.

 

[francisco santos]

Hey Dave,
thanks for the input I definately agree with you. I am actually mainly buying for my projects rental would be on the side. I just am looking for the most versitle hi powered lights available. I am at the point were I have great glass, great cameras, tons of stuff however its the missing link to my arsnel is some bigger powered lights. extra bulbs got it!

 

[david_winters]

I managed a small generator rental business for a few years, 500A, 1600A and distro. 6k, 12k, 18k, it is rare for someone to rent one. At a minimum plan on purchasing in pairs. For the redundancy as well. In addition to spare globes, spare head feeders, grip savers, roadrunner (expensive) or cankovaters for each light. Also, open accounts at your local rental houses, because your lamps or ballasts will break down on a job, and the client will demand a replacement same day, typically within 1-2 hours. Or, you will have two 18k but they want three, you'll be faced with no rental or hustle and sub the 3rd lamp to fill the order.

Since you own joker 800 and 1600 I would skip the M18, unless you plan to sell off the jokers.

For me, owning cameras and lenses is cheap and hassle free after maintaining diesel plants and 18k lights.

 

[Paul Dean]

Hi,
what Im looking to do is buy some big boy lights that I plan on renting as well as using for my own shoots. I have about 100k to spend I know I can get a couple. What would you suggest for an outdoor daylight kit. I know Im going to need some sort of generator in that price as well.

I wouldn’t buy any light that requires a diesel generator to power it. Diesel tow plants come with a lot of extra costs. First you are going to need to buy a good size grip truck to tow it since rental box trucks are not equipped to tow. Second, you are going to need to hire a licensed electrician to pull a permit to operate it. Third, you are going to need to buy a sizable electrical distribution package and a lot of feeder cable to get the diesel plant off set where it won’t be heard on your audio tracks.

These days you don’t need a diesel tow plant to power a big gun. The new ARRIMAX M90 puts out as much light as a 12k Par and can be powered, along with other lights, on a pair of paralleled Honda EU7000s. Given the sensitivity of cameras these days, that is all the light you need to do even large night exteriors.

Paul Dean

 

[Mark Wuerthner]

Since you have the joker 800 have you thought about using the k5600 Big Eye for your "big boy" lights? With a joker 800 this light according to its photometrics puts out 38 footcandles at 30 feet at full flood. That's about a half stop over t4 @800 iso. And that's at full flood, the brightness goes up quickly with any spotting in. So you now have a source that is 24" in diameter like a big boy light that weighs 20 pounds and you can plug it into the wall, takes one guy to set up, and can be folded down and put into the back of a Mini Cooper. I just saved you $97,859 and you have taken a step into the future of film lighting. For other "large sources" look at Profoto or Bron or Elinchron for large light shapers (beauty dishes, parabolic umbrellas, softboxes, etc.) that you can plug you joker 800 into using the Joker Crossover adapter. Here is a link to a light test using large light shapers on the Joker.
http://s1group.ca/content/k5600-hmi-light-output-test-mola-profoto-and-k5600-lighting-modifiers

 

[David W. Jones]

Since you have the joker 800 have you thought about using the k5600 Big Eye for your "big boy" lights? With a joker 800 this light according to its photometrics puts out 38 footcandles at 30 feet at full flood. That's about a half stop over t4 @800 iso. And that's at full flood, the brightness goes up quickly with any spotting in. So you now have a source that is 24" in diameter like a big boy light that weighs 20 pounds and you can plug it into the wall, takes one guy to set up, and can be folded down and put into the back of a Mini Cooper. I just saved you $97,859 and you have taken a step into the future of film lighting. For other "large sources" look at Profoto or Bron or Elinchron for large light shapers (beauty dishes, parabolic umbrellas, softboxes, etc.) that you can plug you joker 800 into using the Joker Crossover adapter. Here is a link to a light test using large light shapers on the Joker.
http://s1group.ca/content/k5600-hmi-light-output-test-mola-profoto-and-k5600-lighting-modifiers

This would be a good addition to a kit!

 

[Ulf Krentz]

This would be a good addition to a kit!

It definitely is, love this thing. The fresnel lens is frosted plastic, not exactly the same as the proper glass fresnel, but hey you can easily travel with it and place it close to your subject where a traditional 24" would light a fire

 

[Billy Jim]

Since you have the joker 800 have you thought about using the k5600 Big Eye for your "big boy" lights? With a joker 800 this light according to its photometrics puts out 38 footcandles at 30 feet at full flood. That's about a half stop over t4 @800 iso. And that's at full flood, the brightness goes up quickly with any spotting in. So you now have a source that is 24" in diameter like a big boy light that weighs 20 pounds and you can plug it into the wall, takes one guy to set up, and can be folded down and put into the back of a Mini Cooper. I just saved you $97,859 and you have taken a step into the future of film lighting. For other "large sources" look at Profoto or Bron or Elinchron for large light shapers (beauty dishes, parabolic umbrellas, softboxes, etc.) that you can plug you joker 800 into using the Joker Crossover adapter. Here is a link to a light test using large light shapers on the Joker.
http://s1group.ca/content/k5600-hmi-light-output-test-mola-profoto-and-k5600-lighting-modifiers

Great advice.

 

[Mark K.]

Since you have the joker 800 have you thought about using the k5600 Big Eye for your "big boy" lights? With a joker 800 this light according to its photometrics puts out 38 footcandles at 30 feet at full flood. That's about a half stop over t4 @800 iso. And that's at full flood, the brightness goes up quickly with any spotting in. So you now have a source that is 24" in diameter like a big boy light that weighs 20 pounds and you can plug it into the wall, takes one guy to set up, and can be folded down and put into the back of a Mini Cooper. I just saved you $97,859 and you have taken a step into the future of film lighting. For other "large sources" look at Profoto or Bron or Elinchron for large light shapers (beauty dishes, parabolic umbrellas, softboxes, etc.) that you can plug you joker 800 into using the Joker Crossover adapter. Here is a link to a light test using large light shapers on the Joker.
http://s1group.ca/content/k5600-hmi-light-output-test-mola-profoto-and-k5600-lighting-modifiers

Looks like a very cool piece of kit. But there's no replacement for displacement.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

We love our BIG EYE too.

You can use it with a Joker 200 for beauty and get amazing results.

 

[Paul Dean]

Since you have the joker 800 have you thought about using the k5600 Big Eye for your "big boy" lights? With a joker 800 this light according to its photometrics puts out 38 footcandles at 30 feet at full flood. That's about a half stop over t4 @800 iso.

I don’t know where your getting this figure from because K5600 only has photometrics up to15’ for the Big Eye with the Joker 800. According to their website, a 800W Joker with Big Eye provides 152 FC at full flood at 15’ with a beam spread of 17.9 ft., which isn’t squat in a daylight situation. When the sun is, at most latitudes between 5,000 & 10,000 FC (depending on the time of day), you are better served by an ARRIMAX M90 which provides 3314 FC at full flood at 15’. 3314 FC is going to go a lot further balancing daylight or lighting deep background at night than the measly 152FC of a Big Eye with Joker 800. Besides, you can power an M90 off a range plug circuit or paralleled Honda EU7000s. I have never liked the flimsiness of the Big Eye – it doesn’t hold up well outside in the wind.

Paul Dean

 

[Mark Wuerthner]

If you use the inverse square law you can extrapolate various photometrics from K5600 tables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
http://www.geofflawrence.com/inverse_square_law.html
Inverse square means that if you move a light double the distance away from subject the light will be reduced by one quarter. If you look at k5600 tables you can see this (for instance look at joker 800 Big Eye at full flood: 3 feet =3789 fc, 6 feet=947fc). I doubled the distance from 15 to 30 feet and divided 152 footcandles by 4 to come up with 38 fc.

My point is that there are ways to light using "large sources" that don't always involve large amounts of electricity. If you are shooting daytime interiors at t2.8 @800ISO then the big eye might have plenty of throw. If you look at the test that I put a link to, you will notice that many of the reflectors that they used are from medium to very large size yet these reflectors put out the same amount of light that the big eye did. I agree you are not going to overpower daylight or light up a city block with a bigeye. The still photo world uses the power of parabolic reflectors and I think that the video world should learn from it. I think it would be great if k5600 or other manufactures came up with a 24" diameter polished parabolic reflector that had about a 25 degree beam spread that you could snap onto the light. You would then start to have the same foot candles as the joker has with it's lenses only you would have a much larger source light. At that point you might be able to challenge daylight.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Mark you may take at look at the broncolor satellite evolution or the smaller Mini which is around 24". Those reflectors can be used with HMI and are vicious. But all of them are far from being "Big Boy Lights".

 

[Paul Dean]

My point is that there are ways to light using "large sources" that don't always involve large amounts of electricity. If you are shooting daytime interiors at t2.8 @800ISO then the big eye might have plenty of throw.

Hardly. I’m not talking about overpowering daylight. I’m talking about balancing daylight. I just measured 750FC outside my window on an overcast day. If I wanted to create the feel of a sunny day by bringing a “big boy” light in through the window from outside it would need to be at least 750FC and even more if I wanted to put half CTS on it to warm it up. A Joker 800 with a Big Eye at 15’ will cover the window but won’t have enough juice at 152FC to look like direct sun. After putting half CTS on it to warm it up you would only have 110FC. For that you would need at least a 4k M40 HMI (1184FC at 15ft) which can operate off a 7500W modified Honda EU6500. My point is that you do need something larger than a Joker 800 with a Big Eye, but you don’t need a diesel tow plant to power a “big boy” light when the ARRIMAX M90 or M40 will operate off common wall receptacles or modified Honda generators and provide plenty of juice.

Paul Dean

 

[shashbugu]

Truly speaking you are better of renting Generators.
Big boy lights truly depend on the type of shoot you are doing. if you are shooting Rap music vids the proximity of light to talent id usually pretty close, an M40 is pretty good. If you a large groups of people an M90 or Arrimax is what you need to over power the sun. However its important to note that if you are shooting on a day when the clouds are going in and out, the best lights are 9 or 12 light diachronic mole fays, they help balance out the sunlight without being unnecessarily bright. They are also much cheaper than tungstens so you can buy a bunch of used ones. you can also buy big tungsten sources. 24 and 30K, much cheaper but work really good outdoors both day and night. Armies', M40, M90, etc will fetch you high dollar in rentals, but you'll have to partner up with a few gaffers to get the clientele.

 

[Paul Dean]

...the best lights are 9 or 12 light diachronic mole fays, they help balance out the sunlight without being unnecessarily bright. They are also much cheaper than tungstens so you can buy a bunch of used ones. you can also buy big tungsten sources. 24 and 30K, much cheaper but work really good outdoors both day and night.

Diachronic bulbs are hard to come by these days. Most rental houses no longer provide them for the Mole 9 or 12 lights. When you can find the bulbs, they are very expensive, and draw a lot of power for the lumens they put out (you typically need a tow plant to power them.) You are much better served by a 4-9kw HMI that you can run on Honda portable generators.

Paul Dean

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Don't buy any generators, just rent them. They're a pain, they're big, they need to be towed and kept up, they take a lot of work. Easier to just charge a client for them and add a bit onto the rental when you book for your trouble.