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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

History of the S35 Scarlet (and why it's now EPIC-S) from my perspective...

Joseph Hutson

Joseph Hutson

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<<<<REWIND back to Nov 13th,2008

We heard about the creation of the DSMC. When it came down to the Scarlet, we found out that the idea of a PROFESSIONAL and also POCKET camera, had birthed a host of cameras including the:

(1) 2/3" FIXED Scarlet
(2) 2/3" CINEMA Scarlet
(3) S35 Scarlet
​
For many, the S35 caught their eye. The reason why it wasn't going to compete with the EPIC lineup was for one simple fact. It would have a considerable lower ability to generate framerates and a huge amount of datarates. It was to have a maximum of 30FPS

FAST FORWARD to September 20th, 2010 >>>>

In September '10 and then again this past early October RED released a couple of examples of their HDRx™™™™ breakthroughs. With the response we gave RED, the idea of having HDR MOTION in each of the DSMC's for an additional $1,000 sounded to be a great idea for Scarlet.

Yes, only an additional $1000 for the 2/3" Scarlet that already has an ability of shooting 120fps (and theoretically now 60fps of HDRx™™™™ when the framerate is cut in half).

But what about this S35 Scarlet? It only had a max of 30fps. Adding the boards for HDRx™™™™ would only bring, at the most, 15fps of HDRx™™™™. Pretty useless if you ask anyone who's wanting to shoot primarily for MOTION.

>>TODAY<<

Many are anticipating the release of what we now know is the EPIC-S (while a few who know it to be an EPIC Light). Many still question WHY was a brain that was once $7,000 now close to $12,000?

I think RED realized that for the S35 Scarlet to have HDRx™™™™ it had to have a max of 60fps overall. This meant bigger boards, thus more elbow room to fit these boards in which called for a "truck frame instead of the economy car frame"

When Jim said "Real frame rates cost real money", that's what is meant.

With frame rates added and the demand for an upgraded frame, this S35 Scarlet became apparent that it's destiny was to become an entry level EPIC camera.

>>>>FUTURE>>>>

Pretty soon we shall hear the final specifications for the EPIC-S. I suspect (not a guarantee) a max of 60 FPS of 5K with 30FPS of 5K in HDRx™™™™ mode (1/2 of what the EPIC-X offer). If this is the case, do you realize how powerful this "gun" might be in a fight?

Includes an M-X chip the size of 30mm x 15mm. 5K resolution (resolves 4K after debayering). 13.8MP RAW STILL/MOTION, only the size of a Hasselblad, etc.

I'm currently at the fringe of deciding to go with the EPIC-S depending on if I can wing the cost of the camera upon first release. Even if I am not one of those who get it, it's a killer of a deal and will be THE camera that everyone has their eye on.

Yes, real frame rates may cost real money. But is it worth it? I think so...
 
I think RED made mistake because they didn't announce HD digital cinema professional camera for about $1000 bucks

and simply with that step to "kill" all those DSLR and mirror-less enabled still cameras that selling us HD video

with their inferior codec H264 or AVCHD, etc,...

RED could sell millions of that affordable HD digital cinema professional cameras...

REDCODE and HDRx for masses, for millions of worldwide users...

it could be significant as an iPod/iPhone/iPad Apple's revolution...and also growth...

But you never know maybe it's still possible just because is actually not late for that step...
 
Sanjin,

I don't think RED could make millions of those $1000 affordable professional DSLR competitors.

I'm not sure they could make hundreds of thousands of any camera model.

I'm just hoping they can fully meet demand for EPIC-X which I expect to be in the thousands (like RED One) and EPIC-S which I expect to be in the mid ten thousands.

Scarlet is a tougher sell to RED's traditional market of cinema folks, but I think that the sort of people who find an EX1 or HVX200 appealing will snap up the Scarlet fixed in similar numbers to what Sony and Panasonic sell of those units.

Just meeting those production numbers is a huge challenge- and one that RED has yet to prove it can manage.
 
Great post Joseph ... I'm a bit torn as well. I can purchase an R1 from a business partner at $17,500 trade-in value (I'm currently borrowing it), leave it in his name, and then pay the $10,500 upgrade/Stage 3 trade-in price ....

Two advantages to this scenario: 1) TIME. Our serial number is a bit over 1,000 so that should make us very high on the Stage 3 list ... which could make early summer a possibility for me. 2) VALUE. Depending on how the Stage 3 "package" has evolved, there will probably be some added perks in terms of accessories. So it's a better deal than getting just the $28k Stage 4 brain, and then I would have access to all features, framerates and Redcodes.

On the flip side, I'm mostly using this for instructional videos with models, documentary style work (marketing related), possibly commercial, etc ... and a lot of it will be for the web. So I don't necessarily "need" all the extra features and I might hardly use them until I get the opportunity to do more narrative -- and even then might not need them .... plus, even though Stage 3 is great deal -- it's still going to be $16,000 more that could be spent on accessories, lenses, new Mac Pro, rockets, etc.

Given that the Epic-S will cover most people's needs, it really is an exceptional deal at $12k. But then again, if an extremely early Stage 3 is released 3-5 months ahead of the Epic-S ... that's a long time to wait. I would be in the most competitive rental market there is (LA) but even I think I still could probably recoup the $16,000 extra cost (not including extra value of accessories in the Stage 3 package) during that time.

So honestly, because I hate waiting and I appreciate having the "best" option I will probably go with the Stage 3 version. However, if it doesn't work out -- if my partner changes his mind, or for any other reason -- at least I feel great knowing the Epic-S is going to be available later and at a great price.

It will just require a bit more patience :)

Anthony
 
I'm sure Red can build professional Super-35 digital cinema RAW cameras and sell them for $1000 a piece... as soon as they find the magic elves to build them.

It's the same reason why Leica doesn't corner the point & shoot market by selling the M9 for $300 or why they don't sell their lenses for $100 each.

Besides, Apple isn't successful because they sell their products cheaper than the competition, nor have they eliminated their competition.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I'm sure Red can build professional Super-35 digital cinema RAW cameras and sell them for $1000 a piece... as soon as they find the magic elves to build them.

It's the same reason why Leica doesn't corner the point & shoot market by selling the M9 for $300 or why they don't sell their lenses for $100 each.

Besides, Apple isn't successful because they sell their products cheaper than the competition, nor have they eliminated their competition.
Click to expand...

I agree one million percent David. Trying to be the cheapest is a tough way to business and would make Jim's commitment to building the "best" impossible.

Apple is a perfect analogy, they became the biggest tech company by building incredible quality, creating culture/community, and despite the high-quality, still being at an affordable (though high-end) solution for consumers and pros alike.

Even though Red caters to "pros" I think their philosophy is similar and thus totally undercutting others on price is not appealing. Better to give WAY more value/specs at a relatively similar pricepoint as the other pro camera manufacturers.

Anthony
 
Every Red product is cutting edge and pushing the boundaries. A cheaper HD camera that would just make the cut for quality. Thats not Red.

72fps at 2k is good
 
Damn Joseph, this could have been a great thread ... but unfortunately I think your main point will be a little derailed by a debate of whether Red should be in the cheap camera business. Sorry I contributed to that tangent :(
 
AnthonyFlores said:
Joseph, this could have been a great thread ... but unfortunately I think your main point will be a little derailed by a debate of whether Red should be in the cheap camera business. Sorry I contributed to that tangent :(
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think RED found out who they are, guys. If you'd like to discuss whether or not the closed case should be re-opened, feel free to open that can of worms in a separate thread. (No offense)

Back to talking 'bout the topic, or leave it empty for others. Thanks! :)
 
B4 or Canon Mounts options will be available i think.. , and the Redmote making history, yes, indeed it is going to be a very interesting option for the price, Joseph, compared even with an MX Red
 
Joseph,
Your pointing out something relevant here ! The rising price of the S35 Scarlet (myyy preciousss) is not a simple add of amount. Being now the "little" sister in the epic family means that It became something really different from what Scarlet S35 should have been. Wich means that it's also gonna be more powerful !
For me, it would be a dream machine. I got plenty of nikon, canon and zeiss lenses that would be perfect on it. mattebox, battery units, tripod, steadicam, motorized head, shoulder mount. Everything was ready to welcome it.
But with this rising price from 7-8k to 12-14k, plus 3k for ssd upgrade and support, plus raise for minimum 5" lcd, (plus I could afford a RPZ 17-50), and knowing that for all this I'd have to pay an extra 21% vat charges, that's becoming a huge amount.
I really would like to get one but I think lots of people could'nt afford it anymore 'cause of this price rising. And that's sad to be only a matter of money.
So I'm still hesitating, I'm sure that I'll get one, but maybe not as soon as I thought.
Preferring a scarlet pack at the moment and saving more money.

Well I think I'm going in every directions...
Epic-S Is a killer machine !!!

Peace
 
Yup. A lot of people will be weighing their options quite a bit as we move a little closer. However, we can't make any serious decisions until we've seen the final price of the brain, as well as the package prices. Maybe the packages will make it feasible once again. At any rate, for the EPIC-S to be offered for less than $30,000 is a steal. And no, I didn't get it confused with the "X"...
 
Joseph Hutson said:
Yup. A lot of people will be weighing their options quite a bit as we move a little closer. However, we can't make any serious decisions until we've seen the final price of the brain, as well as the package prices. Maybe the packages will make it feasible once again. At any rate, for the EPIC-S to be offered for less than $30,000 is a steal. And no, I didn't get it confused with the "X"...
Click to expand...

True Joseph, if Red was like another company that begins with "A" -- they would have doubled the prices on both the X and S models and still made many DP's think it was the greatest thing ever ....
 
I think that the price increase from 7k to 12k is a bit steep, but it is for a reason... Red isn't in the market to take everyones money (I hope).
But I, and so do others, have trust in red, and hopefully the evolution of the Scarlet s35/Epic-S will definitely be worth the money.
 
Ben Niles said:
Joseph I thought they said that the Scarlet s35 was to have a max of 72fps?
Click to expand...

If the Scarlet s35 is supposed to shoot 72fps does that mean the Scarlet Fixed will not shoot 120fps as originally thought? Or wait... the Scarlet interchangeable and the Scarlet s35 are two completely different cameras aren't they? :embarassed:
 
Tim Nitsch said:
If the Scarlet s35 is supposed to shoot 72fps does that mean the Scarlet Fixed will not shoot 120fps as originally thought? Or wait... the Scarlet interchangeable and the Scarlet s35 are two completely different cameras aren't they? :embarassed:
Click to expand...

Hi Tim.

So far, it seems that the Scarlets will both have 120fps shooting options, perhaps even higher in burst mode. This will, of course, be limited by REDCODE choice and media type - i.e., you may need an SSD to shoot lower compression ratios and higher frame rates. That specific information hasn't been published by RED, yet.

A couple of other things - Scarlet S35 is no more. It has become what is now called Epic-S. So yes, Scarlet Fixed, Scarlet Interchangeable, and Epic-S are all three different cameras. The Scarlets are all 3K 2/3" sensors, and the Epics are all 5K S35 sensors. And everything is Mysterium-X.

I posted this elsewhere - it may help to clear up some confusion about where we stand now.

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