High Speed Jet Skydiving Sequence... Possible CGI & FX options...

[Ketch Rossi]

Ok,

looking to see if there are any CGI/FX artist here with available time and interest for working on a piece and give a general but as specific and close t real costs as possible, as well as time frame this could take, I need to have a Budget and Time frame of delivery for the CGI/FX shots should I go this route, so I would much appreciate if any one interested could read on and provide a Cost and time frame... Thanks..!

Ee are working on one of the Short Films I wrote, which we presented to a high profile client, and just wanted to also offer a second possibility to the Skydiving sequence, possibly using a combination of CGI & FX shots, intercut with a real Jet and clouds footage.

I am fortunate enough to have Joe Jennings, a great Skydiver Operator which I worked with when I hired him for the Skydive Dubai 2012 4k project I Directed, and He is great enough to also be able to film possibly all sequences on Dragon strapped to his helmet and the Bullet Man Skydiver can do this no problem, and we would be also using a second Jet to film the action from... And yes, we'll need a SUPER dependable LONG reaching wireless transmitters to allow me to see what my Skydiver Operator sees, so that I can tell him move a little to left or to the right or slow down or speed up... LOL... And while we already have an interested Sponsor we are awaiting the response of an other Maker we believe might be the absolute best option... Oh, and yes, this will be no doubt one of the most fun shoots I ever did for sure!!

However I am really considering the possibility to do the below listed shots in some combination of CGI & FX in order to both minimize risk and also production costs.

The in,put and advise of fellow Filmmakers/Reduser that have deep experience in CGI/FX are hereby invited to participate and share their knowledge and possibly get hired...


First shot: INT. Jet looking out of the window seeing an Ice/Snow covered small Island in stormy ocean waters thru menacing dark clouds during a Storm.

Second shot: INT. Bottom back of the Jet were the Skydiver is putting the full face helmet on standing over the bottom open latch, with a similar view of the Ice/Snow covered small Island in stormy ocean waters.

Third shot: INT./EXT. Skydiver jumping off the Jet with same view as described on second shot, with the Skydiver been blown off by the combination of the Jet speed moving away after the jump and the actual gravity and atmospheric pressure and stormy conditions pulling it away.

Fourth shot: EXT. Skydiver entering the stormy clouds at high speed arms closed next to the body diving at full speed, similar to the closing shot on our Skydive Dubai 2012 4k ending sequence.

Fifth shot: EXT. Skydiver emerging at full speed below the stormy clouds.

Sixth shot: EXT. Skydiver just emerged from the stormy clouds at full speed that realizes how dangerously close He actually is to the Island, and pulls the shoot open... Which rips off.

Seventh shot: EXT. Skydiver pulling his emergency back up shoot.

Eight shot: EXT. Skydiver landing, at high speed in the same style as in our Skydive Dubai 2012 4k when they skim the water, just that here it is the Snow that gets skimmed blown away by the gliding Skydiver in an patent to drastically slow down the speed in order to stop were He is supposed to.

Ninth shot: EXT. Skydiver holding a Tube, hooked up to a long Bunging Cord itself linked to a wire hooked up to a pair of balloons stretched apart from each other, were the Jet then flies by and hooks up to Pulling the Skydiver up and away form the Island in a trail of Snow blowing up in the storm.


I am thinking of the possibility to Green Screen off a Skydivers Indoor training center tube for the FX shots if not all done real life outdoor, so to be combined to the CGI.

THANKS in advance for your participation in this thread!!

 

[Jordan Buck]

Hey Ketch,

Sounds even more interesting than when you explained it to me the other day!

Like I said if you need any help from me - I would love to be involved.

Looks like its going to be a fun shoot for sure! Living the dream!

Good luck with the GFX options

 

[Andy White]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECUbuBrbP1g - Ketch, some of the description/shot list put me in mind of the Godzilla trailer (approx he first 75 seconds)... not the same, but interesting to look at

I'd say you should lock down a storyboard first, as the shots need fleshing out (ie wide, BCU. POV etc)... and, after that I'd do a CGI previz (as there are lots of cost elements to break down).

After that, I'd probably look to use a combination of mocap and CGI cut in with green screen work.

 

[Matt Hartle]

Hey Ketch,

Thx for this post, I finally have a opportunity to contribute back instead of just lurking! I got a scalet a year ago so I'm newish to the Red family but I've been a 3d animator/ compositor/ designer for the last 17 years.

The biggest thing effecting the shots you have listed (indeed all cgi related needs) is shot design and budget. There's a variety of ways to approach each of the shots, I'll give you my basic thoughts on them and can further explain if your interested.

First thing to do is to build an animatic out for the piece, specifically those shots. I wouldn't mess with story boards in a situation like this because you have a pretty clear idea of what your looking for already. There's significant advantages to animatics, the chief being you have something moving that you can cut with. I find them very useful because I end up designing the shots I want instead of the shots I think I can pull off. After I have the sequence working editorially, I then go back and figure out what's going to be needed to execute them. This way you stay focused on the art of the piece and not the tech.

Animatics can come together quickly using stock models. I build everything at real world scale so you can decide on your lenses and also know the limitations of a given location. Here's a link to a film I wrote that I'm hoping to direct. The trailer at the top of the page is several years old and was literally the first thing I ever directed outside of vfx/ special shoots, so be gentle! Further down the page is an animatic sequence I created for investors to give them an understanding of the first scene in the film. (I'm currently shooting a new trailer/ proof of concept piece for an interested production company. I can share the animatic for that with you off line if your curious) www.fromtheskymovie.com

Here's my thoughts on the shots.

Shot one. This is a straight forward blue/ green screen comp. The imagery out side the window would be a matte paintings/ composite. This is probably based on photography and maybe some cgi modeling. Because your high-up in a plane the parallax on the ground will be minimal meaning you can most likely get away with flat art. This could done 2 1/2 D in comp with nuke. You could add a couple of cloud layers/ atmosphere to give the imagery out side the window some parallax and a kiss of reality.

Shot two. This is a also a straight forward green screen comp shot. You would use the same painting as shot one for the ext views. Also would add some fg atmosphere to enhance the feel of speed. The only concern with this shot is going to be having enough space beneath the plane to effectively hand your green screen and light it.

Shot three. This is kinda a tricky one. It's going to be challenging to the physics of the shot working if you don't shoot it live. The way to do it on a stage would be to harness the guy up and have him jump through the hatch and then use a snatch line from below to yank him out of frame. You could use large fans to blow him and get that sense of air hitting him. You will need your plane/ set to be mounted at least 15 to 20 feet off the floor to accommodate the rigging for something like that. If it was possible, I would opt to shoot this for real where you'll get all the physics for free. You would then need to root the plate to insert the background painting into the scene but that's going to be significantly cheaper than doing a build on a set.

Shot four. I would approach this as a green screen shot with CGI elements. I would recommend hanging the talent with a body harness in front of a green screen with fans underneath to get the air movement. The advantages of this are you will have complete control over their movement using a drag line. You will have a much easier time with lighting and camera movement. Also, using the training tube like in your example is going to require roto extraction on all the plates even if you use green behind. I think you will have a hard time getting even illumination on the screen through the glass tube. The sky for this shot would be matte painting/ compositing. The clouds will be a combination of 3d cgi and plate. The 3d cgi clouds have to be used very sparingly as they are extremely costly to do. I recently finished the new Lionsgate Logo which has these big evolving clouds towards the end of the reveal and we spent well over a third of our budget (a LARGE budget) getting those together.

Shot five. This is going to be the same setup/ elements as shot four but relit to make sense with the modified position of the diver i.e. under the clouds instead of over.

Shot six. This will start with the same setup as shots four and five. The parachute releasing and ripping off could be tried practically on a green stage if you were in a big stage. Otherwise you are looking at a 3d cgi build for this. Doing a simulation like this will require a cloth solve/ keyframe animation. Anytime you get into doing solves (this is where you set up a given set of parameters and then the computer runs a simulation) it's time intensive. The main reason for this is computationally, it can be slow but also due to the inherently unpredictable nature of simulations. It takes a number of iterations to get to the final but it's definitely doable.

Shot seven. Same deal as shot six.

Shot eight. I'm not familiar with the previous piece you referenced (sounds cool though, I'd love to see it!) It seem seems like you may have done this kind of shot already? I'd need more details to offer an opinion but I'd say shoot as much of it as possible in camera. A shot like this will get pretty extensive quickly if you start adding cgi elements. For example, if it was going to be a cgi parachute you would have to rebuild the ground, the guy and anything else the parachute was going to interact with to get the simulation to be physically accurate.

Shot nine. For this I think I would shoot on location if possible. You will need a tower to rig from to pull the guy up. The wire he's holding, balloons, plane will all be 3d cgi elements. You could also do this shot on a stage if needed. For that, I'd build out a small piece of ground that he's standing on so you have real ground interaction and then a big blue screen with rigging to pull him up and away. The challenge on this is going to be getting the speed to feel right. You could consider splitting this into two shots. Do then first shot with him getting yanked out of frame and then the second shot from underneath as he's toe'd away. The advantage of the two shot approach is you hang the talent and shoot him from below for the second shot but you don't move the camera/ talent. You just have them flail around. Then you do the repo in the comp where you would have complete control over speed and composition.

Obviously you could approach this shot with a 3d asset for the guy but I wouldn't recommend it. Building out extensive cgi assets for one off shots is very costly. Usually the expense of the asset is amortized over a number of shots which makes it worth it. Imagine you have a 10 shot sequence that requires a full digital double and you have 10 dollars budgeted. You would think that each shot is going to cost a dollar to complete but the reality is you will probably spend six or seven dollars building the asset and then use the balance of the budget to do the rest of the shots. So a one off shot can actually end up costing nearly as much a sequence because of the front heavy expenses associated with building the assets.

I hope this helps/ the information is useful! Sounds like a great project, very exciting!!

best,

-matt hartle

 

[Ketch Rossi]

He he, I just give you a taste of it Jordan...

Thanks for offering your help if in need I'll call.


Hey Andy,

thanks for the suggestions and link, while a Storyboard will be created it is not an imperative at this time, and in order to create a Previz project off of it, I'll need to invest a substantial amount of money and time which I don't want to do at this time, but I get completely why you suggested that.

What I am looking right now for, since I know exactly what I want to do/shoot, is simply the possibilities/costs for CGI/FX been that of course needs to cut in with the life material and not look CGI, if it does then the job is worth nothing, with today's tech this needs and in my opinion can be done, I juts wanted to offer this here on Reduser to call out any CGI/FX artists amongst our community before I go out and give the job to some one else, but in all honesty I must also say that I have already sent a call out to Weta Digital, for both availability and overall cost, for them to do this.


Hey Matt,

thanks for the links actually you nailed pretty much, however I am specifically only looking for the CGI/FX side of it, as far as times and costs with fellow Reduser, and for this i posted here, as mentioned above to Andy's reply I have already also sent this to Weta Digital, with the absolute confidence that it can be done with them, if they are of course available to do so, since e I already know that they are currently involved in some HUGE project I can't disclose, if we can afford their services that is...

I like that you give strait suggestions not only how to do the CGI/FX but how to approach it with the real life shots, even so I am extremely well versed in how I will shoot it life, I simply appreciate the time and effort put in to writing it, and this typeof info always can serve others well.

The good is that in this project as well as in any and all others I am and will be involved, I'll be shooting a comprehensive "Making Of" videos and Photos as to give a more direct look at how things are done...

Back at you, what I am looking for more specifically is not how to set up the shots, as I have a great deal of knowledge on how to do it, and will of course shoot most of what I can life on location or on set, with in mind what I must also get in order to be cut together with the CGI shots, but I am looking for timeframe and costs to do this shots via CGI/FX with the understanding that this needs to be cut with my shots flawlessly and it can not be differentiated as CGI or I'll loose the moment and the client.

I guess I need to edit the original post as to make more clear what I am asking, thinking of I could have posted on the for hire section... But giving the subject and possible interventions such as yours I tough it could be better served here...

 

[Matt Hartle]

Hey Ketch,

I've seen enough of your posts on here to know your a total pro!! If your talking with weta, you must have a pretty significant budget. If you do still want to explore doing this without going the studio route, it sounds like a fun project to me! We'd need to do an animatic to figure out exactly what your going to shoot and then what's required cgi-wise. Based on that I could give you a shot break down on cost and shot.

Best,
-m

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Well, what the clients have requested is to actually offer a very low and a very high...

I imagine this is because they might want to see if is best for them and the campaign for their product, to do a really high end short, or a series of them.

Reason of this post is so that I give them yet a other option, meaning now not only they have adoption to choose all real live shoot within the limitation in safety, or do it with CGI/FX incorporation, and see the costs involved in both with a TOP world leading CGI/FX company such as Weta Digital, and with good old independent providers such as yourself.

I am of the strong opinion that some times we must make the choice for them, and in this case I actually am having a huge influence and in fact it is because of me that we are doing a short and not a more traditional commercial... And it is also my believe that while a series of low budget shorts can better identify the product with consumers world wide, and give them something to look for when th next short comes out... It is also my strong opinion that starting out with a high end one might also not be abad idea at all, if it has a strong lead actor/actress.


And even if the first was to be a high end one, I would still suggest a series of low budget shorts to be released not too far one form the other, ideally one per month, at list for the first year as to mark a presence with their product via this series of indirect and entertaining short films.

So yes, if you do want to take the time and this sounds like something you would like to be involved with, fill free to email me and lets see what we can do together Matt.

ketchrossi@ketchrossi.com

 

[Andy White]

Hi Ketch

Sounds like you're getting what you need from Matt.

From my point of view, I'd look at doing any mid to wides as a combination of background plates/CGI (I'd avoid volumetrics for clouds and go more old school) and 100% CGI for the skydiver (mocap and keyframe with cloth simulation)... that's why I mentioned locking down a storyboard as this would help formulate a shot-list to bid on. I wouldn't want to (personally) do previz until there's a more obvious shot breakdown in terms of framing - but boards do the job. - ie quick scamp visuals can very clearly show intention and scope... without having to get bogged down in animatics/previz.

I'm also currently working on a CGI job with mocap human characters and full cloth sims, it's been interesting (to say the least) - so that's an option that's 'in my mind' as I'm living it day to day

Of course, you know this - as you have the sequence in you head... and know what you'd shoot. But a quick set of 'boards with start/mid/end frame will help really communicate the shots you have in mind... and pin down a more accurate budget.

I've been involved in lots of jobs when this step has been overlooked... and the CG Supe will be going crazy about the amount of work that's being done without being billed.

If I was directing or pitching the job myself (ie not acting as a VFX vendor), I would do CGI previz (as Mike suggests) to try and wow the client and get the job... making it as clear as possible how the sequence will flow and edit (etc), whilst also making sure shots can be delivered (ie not over promise). But, I see this as different type of job, as it's really just a case of clarifying your Director's vision and making sure the VFX house knows what's coming.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Now I know exactly were you were coming form with your first post, and while I still think there is no need for a storyboard, I do appreciate your reasoning for it, and I might actually change my mind on that...

More then pitching it I am to actually offer different possibilities with different budgets, with in mind the possibility to actually do both one high budget one and a series of low budget ones as to a give a following to the interest on the actual product via series of super action packed triller Short Films, were the audience of interest could kind of wait to see what will be done next...

I actually also like your ideas and input and this type of jobs are surely not done just by one individual, so most definitely I believe there can be room for several fellow Reduser to work on it.

I actually made the initial post here exactly to see the possibility to be Working together with a number of fellow Reduser on the slow budget series of Short Films, again, possibly one per month, and either follow or serve as an intro to the high budget one that would be done by a large studio with a strong lead.

I am thinking this, while still need to see where the cost will fall to do this kind of sequences in CGI/FX, then only having to add our costs of production and Skydiving to add to the rest of the piece.

Thanks again Andy for the great ideas and input shared and the interested you, like Matt are taking in this, much appreciated!!

 

[Andy White]

Ketch - glad to help out and give my perspective.

Drop me a PM if you need anything.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Ketch - glad to help out and give my perspective.

Drop me a PM if you need anything.

Thanks Andy!!

 

[Zeb B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiDvpeWk0P8

 

[Ketch Rossi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiDvpeWk0P8

Thanks for the link, but this is very different form what I have in mind with this shoot.

The only thing that this Skydiver will be battling will be the elements, but needs to show the actual exiting the high speed Jet and going in and out of the dark stormy clouds with a hard landing stopped by the foot drag type of style used on the Skydive Dubai 2012 sequences as they land bypassing over water and do the foot dragging.