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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

High quality but economical gyrostabilized gimbal for Epic/Scarlet

Hey sorry just saw your post.
Well there is drift and the sensor seemed to get confused with off roll axis tilt extreme motion.
There is a dutch operator that bought the allien and finally sold it because he was pissed of of all the errors he was getting.Other than that having a tilt as well wont make things easier as you will have to deal with 2 sensors and you create more errors in different angles and different rotations.
About the patent. Lynn Nicholson is the first creator and to me the only one that ho;ds international patents over the Allien, MKV has some as well or is under some deal with Lynn, But I dont want to say things that might be wrong. Contacting with Lynn will tell you the situation.
The rc systems dont work well, they dont hold good horizon and they do get a lot of drift for camera application, though I ve see some preety good shots on you tube from helis very stable but non of them hold perfect horizon.
Its all up to electronics and software guys and that is expensive to experiment as you might start buying stuff and find out they dont work as should.
I have talked with various companies in the past and non of them insured me that the system will operate 100% or take the responsibility to do so. And the sensors I was looking at were very expensive.
I believe that if a few people can be involved being experts in electronics and sensors,
programing and software and machining and design, it can be done, because many
companies out ther have done it others very well others not so well but all with expensive RnD so if some get together and chip in with some cash and expertation
It can be done. Not sure if its going to be cheap BUT IT WILL WORK AND CAN BE IMPROOVED. tRIAL AND ERROR will be there most of the time and that is costly
I have learned the hard way in my business.
 
Hi Constantine,

Don't know if you were referring to my YT video.
if Yes.. good eye :)

You are correct..
That was a 'quickie' test video....
There is a specific menu in the device to cancel the artifact you see when tilting beyond a certain point. In the video shown, that menu had not been dialled in.
 
Hello George.
Ok let me tell you what I would like to see your head doing.
First of all show some very slow rotations and see then if the axis is stablized in horizon.
Just put a level on the camera stage. I know it will move dinamically until it setles to show if your horizon is right or no. But perform REALLY slow moves.
The other thing is the reaction of your servos. What about really quick rolls for instance
+ - How quickly can the servos react to that.
Sugestion have you tryed playing your system with some quality servo motors like Maxon, or FAULTBAHER? instead of using modified servos?
 
Hi Constantine,

Thanks for your reply.
What you mention is easily doable.
It will be on another camera mount though, since that Copterworks mount was from one of my customers, and now it's back at him.

George
 
Well basickly what I like to see is the reaction and repeatability of your gyros in configurations of really slow moves and fast small moves, simulating real situations like for instance hand held camera moves.
you can make a video showing just servos with a disc mounted and marks so I can see if they can hit the marks or even mount a buble lever or electronic so we can see how they keep horizon.
I would also like to see this through a lets say 5 minute operating time continually with
motion braks and mixed slow , very fast , very slow, etc.as well as see what happens when you perform different axis rotations as well. For instance if the gyro and servo is fixed to work on roll axis I d like you to tilt it as well to 90 degrees and see what happens with horizon accuracy there as well as most gyros get drift when performing mixed axis rotations, and they get comfused.
If there is no drift and fluid operation keeping horizon in all these situations Iam interested in your gyros.
One other thing. How easy is to adjust and tune these gyros and eventually if you do , do they keep all the set up after the turn on and off?
Can they be operated after they are tuned just turning the system on again and go or is it more complex than that?
thanks
 
Hi Constantine,

I'll try to do what you're asking.
It seems like a thorough enough test.
Keep in mind that this is a cheap device ...
and therefore neither the sensors, nor the motors ( 2 most important elements) are of the same calibre like the ones used in the pro film industry.

I am confident that the way I've coded the IMU algorithms, will meet what you are requesting.

Some general notes:
When you tilt a Roll axis 90 degrees down, it becomes a Pan.
You say, 'the gyro will get confused'.

It's because what was horizon is now fast becoming a pan as you tilt to nadir. If one keeps tilting more ( climbing back to horizontal ), this is were the gyro gets really confused... because horizon is now upside down.
Therefore, the camera has completely lost the horizon by 180 degrees!!

My IMU (= has gyro+accelerometer) will notice this and will bring the Roll axis upright as soon as you hit the 45 degree mark going up.
You will see this in the video I'll make you.
This point of recognition is arbitrary and can be changed.

Also because of this factor, the IMU will surely react a bit strangely (to us).. if while tilting down.... one tries to pan relatively fast. ie above 30-45 degrees per second.
Although the IMU will try to hold horizon, it is feeling the rate of turn component as well, because it is sensing rotation not only in its axis, but in a mixed vector composed of 3 axis.
In my device, one has 4 different programs on what the unit does if it were in this situation. They vary from keeping attention to mostly the gravity vector ( ie holding horizon even when panning ), to almost ignoring the gravity vector, and therefore, will pay more attention to the rotations sensed.

BTW.. Yes. The unit keeps memory of all your settings, and can be powered off and on and it will be ready in less than 3 seconds.
It can work in standalone as well. ie.. only battery, IMU and servo drive to the axis.
And this will be the way I will make you your demo video.

Thanks :)

GM.
 
Thanks George I get what you say, waiting for your video.
A set up with out wireless is one thing I have forgoten to write.
I need this closed loop and self powered.
Do you think its possible to power from probats like idx or other but have in mind they power out more that 14 VDC.
aLSO THE SERVO MOTORS i WANT TO ADDAPT WITH THE SYSTEM IS 12VDC ALSO.
tHANKS
 
Hello, first introduce myself, my name is Alberto and I'm from Spain. I have an IMU of George and am doing tests. I am very interested in a medium that actually stabilizes the camera. I think we should take into account both the vertical velocity as the linear velocity that displaces the center of gravity. no?
my idea is to put a stabilizer style "WESCAM" in an ultralight plane
A Greeting from George
 
Hi Alberto.. nice to hear from you... contact me, as I have newer firmware for your IMU.

BTW.. Constantine....sorry for my delay in replying with the video requested.... its that I was spending all my free time devoted to writing the application to be able to program / control the IMU from a Windows PC.
So..video comes as soon as I have some time to shoot it.
 
Hi everybody


The Microstrain IMU 3DM-GX2 is very sensitive, precise and repetability is really good the ratio (Price/Quality) seems to be one of the best i'm working with the French Microstrain dealer but their Ing is busy and a little bit aware.

I have only one problem, but a big problem the software is "crazy" when i connect it, the head go perpetualy in a rock and roll dance, a little bit fun, but not for me, have you a solution? may be a developper in Europe, or we contribute all to paid an open developped software based on "Euler angle" able to drive servo motors or/and steppers motors. If anybody is able to do that I'm OK.

If i resume mechanic is a cup of tea, convert PC signal in language to servo equaly, but develop a good software is like to attack a "granit rock" for me.

Best regards


Gilles
 
Just had the opportunity to use the Filmo Technic Mini Flight Head on a recent job. This is the head to be measured against. Small, light, and does a great job of stabilizing. Here are some pics...
QU_AA_NIEF_AA_4774 v2.jpg
CloseCC.jpg
 
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gyro heads

gyro heads

Here r two different gyro stabilized heads that I have worked with a lot. I've used both heads on the water in power boats and sail boats.

The Perfect Horizon- http://motionpicturemarine.com/
a great product, although sometimes a little tempermental, after two monthes of twelve hour shooting days at see it would quit on us once in a while. One plus is that it operates silently so its good for sync work.

The Mako Head- http://www.makohead.com/
A tank this thing works always. But its big, heavy, and makes a high pitched buzzing whine. It is tough though. Also works under slung on a crane.
 
Do you still need a gyro stabilization unit?

Do you still need a gyro stabilization unit?

Lauri Kettunen said:
For some time I've been processing on the technical details of a high quality gyrostabilized gimbal for Epic and Scarlet.

We all know that high quality gimbals are very expensive. I've learnt that they start from $150K - $250K, and one easily makes an assumption that the high cost is somehow forced on us by the nature. And yes, scientifically we know that there is no way to recognize gravity from other mechanical forces/accelerations acting on a moving object, so proper stabilization requires highly skillful engineering. The other side of the coin is, take a look at a $150K gimbal and compare it to a car which costs $150K --what is your conclusion on that?

Once I've put my mind on this I've become convinced that technically it is possible build a first class fully gyrostabilized gimbal for Epic/Scarlet with a reasonable cost. I have been developing high accuracy navigation systems etc. and have quite a lot of experience in developing challenging engineering products and thus feel not standing steadily 20cm above the ground level. Furthermore, I'm talking about using the gimbal when shooting from car, boat/ship, snow mobile, RC helicopters etc., but not about airplanes or helicopters as that's an regulated area.

If you've read this post up to this point and you are still interested in the subject, let me point one interesting detail making the challenge bit easier; Designing a gimbal to Epic or Scarlet is easier than designing a gimbal to Red One. For, with Epic one needs to stabilize only the brain and lens and consequently in both cases there is less mass to stabilize than that of Red One. (A word of warning; Still one should not expect the Epic brain will weigh almost nothing. Second, it is not yet clear how long cable one may attach between the brain and the rest of the camera.) Less mass imply smaller and cheaper motors, and the cost reduces much faster than linearly with respect to the mass.

Basically I'm just interested in getting a proper gimbal, but buying the existing products are not economically justified. Second, have neither indefinitely time to design a gimbal. For this reason I decided to make an attempt to find out how many other people are interested in such kind of gimbals and who could contribute something if such a system is developed. You know, this post is about probing whether a kind of Linux approach could work out. That is, eventually if everything worked out we posted on RedUserNet drawings, list of components, software etc. enabling anybody who knows how to use a screwdriver to construct a gimbal or some 3rd party takes over and finds the outcome as a business opportunity.

So, if you are still reading could you reply if you have an interest in a reasonable cost gimbal, and second, if you could tell whether you would be willing and able to contribute something on designing such a gimbal. If yes, to get an idea of feedback, could you rate yourself exploiting the following guidelines:

1) High experienced user: You are able to tell where the technical challenges lie in practice. Such as, you are able to tell which axis pan,tilt or roll is most critical one to stabilize.

2) Skillfull designer in engineering: You know say what is a PID-controller, what the moment of inertia is, or you know why modelling of the mechanics of the gimbal is important.

3) Electronics/electrical engineer: Your are able to distinct between embedded system, induction machine and stepper motor, and you know how motors are driven.

Have no idea whether this attempt will crash immediately or whether it will lead somewhere, but at least there's an attempt. Finally, if you hesitate to post in public, send me a pm. Those filled with pessimism, could you please let others to have a rational discussion. Thanks
Click to expand...

_______________________________________________________
We have been working closely with gyro stabilization for three years. See our web site at www.rynomotors.com . I designed and hand built each prototype. I have been a mechanical engineer for twenty five years. See my web site at www.christopherhoffmann.wordpress.com . I'd be glad to open a dialog on how best to serve your needs.

Sincerely,

Chris Hoffmann
chris@rynomotors.com
 
Now that I've processed more than a year on this gimbal, eventually got good ideas how to design and construct such a gimbal system in a completely new way. All this time I've been after a simple and low cost design, and finally might have found it.

People have sent me messages and asked all sort of things, such as what kind of motors should be uses etc. If things are as I now surmise all this can be avoided. At least, that's what I'm after as such things only make the gimbal construction rather complex and heavy. But we'll see. No promises from my side, but might have found the way to overcome the challenges. In addition, will make a full prototype only for Epic and Scarlet once they arrive as they are much lighter than R1. To give a hint of what's going on, have a 25 year experience in electromagnetic design on the highest possible level ...
 
Hello there. I have also worked out a very nice gyro module gimbal that you can mount a mini 2 axis head underslung only and it works very well in theory.
My design uses just one Kenyon KS4 gyro for this , together with a motion control module and stepper motors. Before someone says that a kenyon KS4 isnt enough to stabilize, I will say that the Kenyon isnt used the way that you think.
Also you will have the option of recording all movements of the gimbal and pan tilt head data and if one wants use it on CGI.

The system though isnt exactly very cheap , BUT it can be 1/10 of the price of any equivalent system. There are also vibration isolation for the head.

Pm me for information so we can make this real.

Or I can work together with a 3rd party on this idea.

EDIT. The system uses an 8 axis motion controller and software for 8 axis, joystick or wheel control, or even pan bar if required for the control of the head, and also recording reall time motion both at gimbal and head.
Stepper gear motors for simplicity and reliability for all axis.
Not exactly a small unit BUT VERY effective with big accuracy and no DRIFT.

Either way its a very good solution, for aerial and vehicle shooting.

and not only for light cams.

Thank you.
 
Lauri hello. good to talk to you.
What you are showing me is the Gyron .
Gyron has various gimbals and its one of the most effective in the industry.
I my self had the chance to play with one on the 2004 Olympics in Athens.
They had it mounted on boats and helicopters many of them.
These gimbals are working with sensors and motors and they also have an antivibration mount. Of what I have read you want to make something with out sensors and motors which I really find hard to think off , and I had the feeling you were going for something different.
Gyron is not a light weight system and in some cases it has intergraded cameras in it.
In fact it can be quite heavy less than space cam but still very heavy indeed
My gimbal is nothing like this in philosophy .
My gyro gimbal works with out sensors .
I would rather talk privet about this if you like so you can discuss this with me and see what I mean. I also have the original idea of the motion control intergration to the system so the motion data of the gimbal and remote head can be recorded reall time on shooting and then can be played back on a studio with the exact rig mounted on a steady base, (well the head only really) and add cgi effects and that maybe is of interest and usefull in some cases, plus the fact that you also have a moco head.
Are you getting where Iam going?
Iam interested in working together or sharing this project .
I also can produce CNC machined parts using my rigs manufacturer with great quality.
Interested?
EDIT The mini filmotecknic head works same way as the bigger heads , and I have seen footage with horizon errors nmounted on vehicles so its not exactly great stabilizing, it works quite well, but nothing like the gyron.
I believe I can achieeve much better results.

MORE EDIT. the cost is very relative to the results.
Getting sensors that work and low or non backlash motors for this can be expensive as well.
 
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