Help with process

[Allen Abrahams]

We shot a low budget feature last year and the editor was mostly finished with his edit last fall. Because of the unclear process path, we now find our selves in a dilemma. The hope was to use Red Cine to color correction at full 4k.

Editing was done using "p" proxies. It was edited with transitional effects (crossfades, etc.). We tested Crimson Workflow with five clip sequences. We now know that Red Cine will not process these effects correctly. It appears that we would need to break the timeline into 25 clip sequences (no big deal) and remove all the cross fades and other effects (pita) for Red Cine to work.

Can we color correct the .R3D files with Red Cine or RedLine with out breaking the links from our proxy files?
Can we save the edit and color correct with an other program?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Uli Plank]

Do you really need 4 K?

 

[Tim Fassnacht]

We shot a low budget feature last year and the editor was mostly finished with his edit last fall. Because of the unclear process path, we now find our selves in a dilemma. The hope was to use Red Cine to color correction at full 4k.

Editing was done using "p" proxies. It was edited with transitional effects (crossfades, etc.). We tested Crimson Workflow with five clip sequences. We now know that Red Cine will not process these effects correctly. It appears that we would need to break the timeline into 25 clip sequences (no big deal) and remove all the cross fades and other effects (pita) for Red Cine to work.

Can we color correct the .R3D files with Red Cine or RedLine with out breaking the links from our proxy files?
Can we save the edit and color correct with an other program?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Hi Allen,

You could try this workflow:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22562&highlight=Clipfinder+WOrkflow

 

[Allen Abrahams]

Tim, you link to a mattebox issue.... does not relate. We are in post.

Nomad, we anticipate a projectable print being made and understand that doing color correction in 4K will give a better result even if we are downgrading to 2k.
The producer will be submitting to various festivals, so we need to be able to produce different media on request.

 

[Ian Karr]

Allen,

I recommend you use a SCRATCH system to do your final color grading and 4K DPX export. Not only because I own one but because it will give you the most control over the look of your film, and provides a proven platform for DI. It shouldn't be expensive at all...especially compared to what you've already put into your film!

 

[Rainer Fritz]

So export a EDL. Load it into Nucoda and conform on the RAW Files. The results are very nice and you can grade direct on 12 bit RAW. The same thing is possible with the newest build of Speedgrade, Baselight,... Export to DPX takes time out of there.... the LAB should deal with this....
You can also take the EDL and export with Monkey Extract 10 bit DPX if the Lab wont deal with the direct RAW import.
The EDL should exported in that way, that the transitions and effects are in it....
You can also export a XML out of FCP and do a conform with Hans Georg Daun's Clipfinder to the R3D Files and then you can go in every CC which can read XML and R3D, specially Color and so on.....

One possibility would be to export XML from FCP, Conform with Clipfinder to R3D files, import that to Adobe Premiere CS4 and then send it to After Effects CS4, and you have full access to 12 bit RAW in 4k.....

It is possible, that you have to remove _P in a Editor from the EDL... but thats a easy thing...

 

[M Most]

Nomad, we anticipate a projectable print being made and understand that doing color correction in 4K will give a better result even if we are downgrading to 2k.

That is not the case. There is absolutely no difference in color correction between 2K and 4K if the bit depth is the same - and regardless of whether you use original R3d files or DPX conversions, it is.

The difference comes during capture and conversion, where a larger image can yield more information. So in order to take advantage of that, most DI vendors will convert the R3d files either prior to or following color correction, using a "full" debayer. This provides a proper 4K image, but with scaling (as is usually the case) it also provides a superior (although sometimes only marginally so) image for 2K. But none of that impacts the abilities of color correction, which is based almost exclusively on bit depth. And if you're anticipating a film release, I would be far more concerned about having a proper color management path for film throughout the process than I would about 4K, because frankly, it doesn't sound like you've even considered that.

 

[Allen Abrahams]

Thanks everyone for your input. I will be researching these other options.

mmost,
What I meant is that if I did the FCP to Color process I would end up with 10 bit color depth whereas I would like to end up with the 12 bit it started out with. That is, 12 bit contains 4096 shades of gray compared to 1024 shades of grey for 10 bit. A lot more latitude, supposedly more than super 35 film.

The idea was to mimic the color of "The Godfather Pt. 1", including the sepia tones for our flash back sequences. Most of the budget was blown on 5 SAG actors and the rental of the Red One package for ten days (big leap to buy one without at least some experience IMO). We used ambient light as well as existing fixtures (lamps were replaced with the blue "natural light" lamps), some low watt with filters as well as small clip lights and bounce for fills.

Our DP was the idea guy for the "look" and designed our lighting strategy. He was also to edit and color correct, but bailed to another project after an assemblage and rough edit. The 1st AD took over and is not as familiar with the process, although he is an excellent editor.

I am an audio guy with 30 years experience. Some of my first audio recordings were made in the 1980's on a clunky old Nagra deck for some NYU film student projects. I actually now have a Computer Science BS degree, NLE experience on both Avid and FCP Studio (and others) as well as system trouble shooting and maintenance experience for both systems. Naturally I get to research the tech "details" and present them to my collaborators.
My work has previously been internet oriented. Ten years ago a group of us in Woodstock, NY started streaming live musical performances, archiving to tape with multiple prosumer digital cams, edited in post on the Avid for rebroadcast (2000, way before U-tube or even enough bandwidth for Flash). I designed a rack mounted Mac system and process for streaming from a remote location. I only have been working in depth with the FCP systems the past five years with this DP and Director, primarily dual system with an Anton Super 16 camera. I also volunteer for student films the Park School in Ithaca, NY as what ever is needed (provides our working group with steady stream of PAs and occasional a super talent ;~).

BTW just wanted to add:
Model Name: Mac Pro
Model Identifier: MacPro3,1
Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 2.8 GHz
Number Of Processors: 2
Total Number Of Cores: 8
L2 Cache (per processor): 12 MB
Memory: 18 GB
Bus Speed: 1.6 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MP31.006C.B05
SMC Version (system): 1.25f4

 

[Allen Abrahams]

Clipfinder testing has bee successful (for MOVs). Clipfinder is easy to use and has very clear documentation. I was able to access the RSX files that are in the R3D folders.
What's unclear to me is whether the RSX were generated by the Red One during the set up or if they were generated by the on set viewing with RedAlert! Does the camera generate an RSX file? Also, is there a way to apply that RSX file to the proxies in FCP before going to Clipfinder (save some head aches with the producer who is not so savvy)?
Regardless, the look of the clips is as I remember reviewing the footage on set; looks like 70's film stock now... much warmer! No major grading needs to be done, just some fine tuning.

I was able to conform the test sequence rendered with Clipfinder in a new FCP project with no issues. So darn easy.

The biggest issue is the render time and hard drive overhead. Clipfinder renders the entire clip, not just the sub clip. This is good, except our director left the camera running for 3 and 4 takes sometime. There was 30 seconds from a six min clip of multiple takes that had to render, yikes!

We will have Adobe CS4 soon and hope to get Assimilate Scratch as well.