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HELP!!! Super 16 Lenses on Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera

Rick Augustus

Rick Augustus

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I've been strongly considering buying a Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera and with it I'm looking to use Super 16 Zeiss Super or Standard Speed lenses. I have ZERO experience with Super 16 lenses or the Sensor of the BMPCC. I don't know what which lenses will give me the Field of View or similar, that I'm used to from my 35mm B-Speed/Super Speeds.

Can anyone with or without BMPCC experience help me with understanding what I'm dealing with. And/or what I can look forward to losing or gaining from these lenses on this sensor...

Thanks in advance...
 
Rick, the black magic Pocket Cinema camera uses a S16 sensor, so using S16 Super Speeds should work fine. Look at this test with an 8mm Zeiss prime:


Basically, a set of s16 Super Speeds come in these focal lengths: 9.5, 12, 16, and 25. Double them to get a sense of what their FOV would look like on s35. So a 9.5 is a lot like an 18, the 12 a 24, a 16 a 35, and the 25 a 50. Does that make sense?

Look wise yes they are supposed to be similar to s35 Super Speeds, at least their coatings are similar. They have smaller image circles and I wonder if that affects their bokeh, but you can see what they look like on this trailer, for Moonrise Kingdom, shot mostly on s16 Super Speeds:



Hope this helps!
 
Rick- The Zeiss 8mm T2.1 is a standard 16mm lens. Not a Super16mm. So test coverage on the camera before you buy.

John
 
Here are two clips shot on the SI2K camera which is comparable for image area with the BM pocket cam.

　

Optar Illumina 8mm, 9mm, 12mm, 16mm 25mm 50mm plus Optika-Elite 32mm



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-e_3BSg4uM
These lenses were apparently styled after and sold against the Zeiss Super16mm Ultra primes. They were engineered for Super16mm. The images were shot on the SI2K which I have heard and read, may have a slightly smaller "Super16mm" film plane area coverage than the BM Pocket camera.

The lens apertures were set within their sweet zone of about T2 - T4 by using ND and IR filters to keep the exposures reasonable. The concentric flare on the right in some images is carelessness on my part in not bagging the rear of the mattebox.

You will observe some flaring around highlights.


Cinema Products ( by Kowa ) 9mm, 12.5mm, 16mm, 25mm plus Opteka-Elite 32mm.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw694NkKBDw


This clip is not representative of the colours. I cannot colour-grade to save my life as am a bit red-green colour-blind. The last shot in the clip was actually shot first in slightly better lighting conditions before more rain chased me inside the car. That shot was also the longest lens, the Optika-Elite 32mm

I have another clip somewhere which is a better comparison in that I applied ND and IR filtering as with the Optars to bring the lenses within their sweet zome. Running it down has been a challenge.

The Cinema Products lenses were not engineered for Super16mm but will cover the SI2K flavour of Super16mm, except the 9mm which requires modification.

The 9mm is the sharpest lens of the lot. When stressed by being fully open, the corners will go softer. The focus movement design makes it difficult to achieve repeatability of focus pulls.

There is some sort of hybrid helicoid and cam movement. A constant speed rotation of the focus ring reproduces as a focus movement which seems to speed up at the close-focus end.


To yield a comparable look to 35mm sensor cameras with their lenses set at about T5.6, you will have to use ND filtering and likely also IR filtering to enable the Super16mm lenses to operate with a shallower depth-of-field.

Whilst the lenses are mostly rated as T1.3, using them wide-open is not advised as they all lose contrast and some sharpness in the last one to one and a half stops to wide-open. These are proper cine lenses in that they have focus gears, finely controllable focus movement and cine-camera mounts. The lenses in these clips are older designs which come from the era 1996 thereabouts at latest. Modern 4/3 format lenses may well outperform them for sharpness and contrast and new cost except for speed. Your challenge may turn out to be justifying the investment of between $750 to $2,000 per lens to use on a $900 Super16mm near to 2K camera when the trend is for Super35mm sensors 4K+.
 
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We own the 12, 16 and 25 and they cover the sensor of the BMPCC. The 12 is quite soft in the corners when WO.
 
and these lenses are about as cheep as your going to get!

Nick Morrison said:
Rick, the black magic Pocket Cinema camera uses a S16 sensor, so using S16 Super Speeds should work fine. Look at this test with an 8mm Zeiss prime:


Basically, a set of s16 Super Speeds come in these focal lengths: 9.5, 12, 16, and 25. Double them to get a sense of what their FOV would look like on s35. So a 9.5 is a lot like an 18, the 12 a 24, a 16 a 35, and the 25 a 50. Does that make sense?

Look wise yes they are supposed to be similar to s35 Super Speeds, at least their coatings are similar. They have smaller image circles and I wonder if that affects their bokeh, but you can see what they look like on this trailer, for Moonrise Kingdom, shot mostly on s16 Super Speeds:



Hope this helps!
Click to expand...
 
Will Keir said:
and these lenses are about as cheep as your going to get!
Click to expand...

Well s16 Zeiss Super Speeds are minimum $1k each, and generally need some servicing...so not sure if they are cheap...but certainly 1/10 of what a Mark III s35 Super Speed would cost!!
 
Hi Rick,

I've been messing around with the BMPCC for a few months now. It's a great tool when you need something between a GOPRO and an Epic. The images coming out of it are great, I have no reservations about shooting small projects with it. I personally would not mess around with S-16 speeds on the camera unless you already own a set. If you want to use the camera to mount to things you'll want smaller and lighter lenses, c-mount are probably the best choice. If it's to have as a compact walk around camera you'll be happier with a zoom - either a Panasonic / Leica 12-35 or a BMPCC metaboones speedbooster and a something in nikon mount in the 17-50 2.8 range ( becomes a 10-29 f1.6 after the speedbooster .58x conversion ) which is a pretty rad range and not too heavy. Looks like you've already got an 11-16 which is a pretty good place to start on this camera.

Don't be fooled by the $1000 price, it will take another $400-1000 to get it up and properly running.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
We have 30 sets of Super 16mm Illuminas ready to ship from either Florida or Russia! These are all NEW. They have been in wide use since 1996. Price for a set of 6: 8mm,9.5mm,12mm,16mm,25mm,50mm is only $ 9600 !!! All T1.3 in PL mounts.

This is what Mitch Gross had to say about the Illuminas: "I own a set of Illumina’s and they are terrific. They have a slightly warmer, smoother contrast look than the Zeiss glass, similar to the difference between Cooke and Zeiss. I think the lenses are top notch and I'd put my 12mm up against a Zeiss 12mm any day. The lenses have excellent color and contrast, are very flare resistant and corner to corner resolution is very high." Mitch Gross, New York...from Cinematography.net
 
John Chater said:
Rick- The Zeiss 8mm T2.1 is a standard 16mm lens. Not a Super16mm. So test coverage on the camera before you buy.

John
Click to expand...

This is fairly interesting to me as I am wondering if the black magic camera really is a good "alternative" story telling camera when used with plain old 16mm lenses... I own more than one, LOL!
 
I picked up the Voigtlander 17.5mm Nocton 0.95 for my BMPCC. I dig it, it's got a great feel to it. They make a 17.5, 25 & 42.5... all 0.95s. They're all MFT mount so no adapters. I just wish they made some wider glass.

A grab of my son with the 17.5... the thing can focus CRAZY close.

1401333_10201866749085448_774072428_o.jpg
 
Thanks guys for ALL of the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. I'm simply looking for a camera that can temporarily replace my Scarlet-X which was stolen, without having to go back to Canon DSLRs. Anyone know where I could pick up some single Zeiss Super 16 Super Speeds for a good price? I called Visual Products this morning and they don't have any.

Any idea if this Zeiss 8mm will fit the BMPCC?
http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail03.asp?productID=86&Cat=8&Cat2=15&Cat3=16
 
The mount on the Visual Products Zeiss Distagon 8mm appears to be ARRI bayonet. The rear of the lens penetrates quite far behind the flange face. ARRI B-Mount flange face is from vague non-Zeiss lens specimen I have, the outer diameter of the ARRI B-Mount shoulder is 40.5mm with the two bayonet lugs making this diameter wider. MFT is 19.25mm from flange to focal plane. - I cant speak for the Zeiss lens and how far back it reaches. The 8mm Optar Illumina reaches back approx. 33mm from flange to rear of lens. 24mm rearwards of the focal plane, there is a point where there commences further rearward, a shoulder in the body lens body which would require 27mm diameter for a clearance fit in a mount. Forward of this point, the lens body widens in a cone shape of about 45 degrees forward to the 50mm diameter of the PL shoulder. The rear of the Optar lens would possibly fall about or a fraction of a millimetre rearwards of the MFT flange. Whether this lens can mount to the MFT mount via a PL-Mount to MFT-Mount adaptor would depend on the clearances within the adaptor. There may be some shims needed to be added or removed in order to achieve precise flange to focal plane distance. Some adaptor kits provide shims. Some do not. Visual Products may be able to advise you. There may be ARRI B-Mount to MFT adaptors. The more likely route may have to be ARRI B-Mount to ARRI PL-Mount adaptor on the lens and then an ARRI PL-Mount to MFT-Mount adaptor. Beyond this very generalised comment of mine, you would really need to talk to a lens tech who has access to a MFT mount adaptor and the lens to be sure whether it fits or can be made to fit.
 
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So far we have had various Canon and Cooke zooms on the BMPCC. Also S16mm Switars and Zeiss 2.1 distagons.

Also Canon FD, EF, Nikon F, Voigtlander M39, M42. lenses.

The cameras secret is to use it for what it is as a small simple camera. Don't over accessorise it.
 
Rick Augustus said:
Thanks guys for ALL of the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. I'm simply looking for a camera that can temporarily replace my Scarlet-X which was stolen, without having to go back to Canon DSLRs. Anyone know where I could pick up some single Zeiss Super 16 Super Speeds for a good price? I called Visual Products this morning and they don't have any.

Any idea if this Zeiss 8mm will fit the BMPCC?
http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail03.asp?productID=86&Cat=8&Cat2=15&Cat3=16
Click to expand...

I have a set of 16mm zeiss super speeds in B mount that I'd consider selling. I also have a set of PL mounts that I bought for them some years ago, but never fitted to the lenses. PM me if you're interested in them.
 
Dave Blackham said:
So far we have had various Canon and Cooke zooms on the BMPCC. Also S16mm Switars and Zeiss 2.1 distagons.

Also Canon FD, EF, Nikon F, Voigtlander M39, M42. lenses.

The cameras secret is to use it for what it is as a small simple camera. Don't over accessorise it.
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to hear about the BMPCC "experience" with vanilla 16mm Bolex RX mount lenses... Might be worth a rental anyway :)
 
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