Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HELP! Dragon Drone Aerial - Copter, Wireless Monitoring and Zoom/F Advice?

ignition

ignition

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
226
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Victoria, Australia
Website
www.ignition.com.au
Hey folks

Well I've trawled the forums for a little over an hour but haven't found a great deal (indeed, if there's a thread already covering this, please flame me and point me in the right direction).

I'm looking to upscale production capabilities towards high-end aerial (drone) cinematography on our DRAGON. It's somewhat new territory for us, and I'm interested in feedback and opinions/advice on equipment from people already doing this, in three key areas:

BTW out baseline minimum limit we're seeking is 500ft (on all points). 700-1000ft preferable.

1) Drone/copter advice - load capacity >6kg - we're partnered with a licensed pilot who's only shot on lighter cameras. His suggestion is something like the Zero UAV but a max camera load capacity of 6kg concerns me. Redundancy (parachute, etc.) remains critical, for obvious reasons :) love to know what people are using and passionately advocate putting their beloved Dragon gear on.

2) Remote DOP/Director monitoring - some drones seem to have something catered for as an "all in one" solution - but I see many benefits of independent wireless HD monitoring solutions (not the least of which is adaptable use on the ground as well as aerial). HDMI or HD-SDI (preferable), low latency. The Paralinx solution seems great, but in the upper end of the cost bracket, which doesn't concern us as much as the fact the transmitter physical design seems more geared for ground work than aerial (I'd be concerned about mounting/wind drag/etc.). Love some suggestions for wireless HD transmission (anything that broadcasts from a base station to smart devices is an added bonus). The DJI Lightbridge looks awesome, but unless I'm wrong, it seems tightly integrated into control functionality of DJI's own drones (which seem unsuitable for a Dragon payload capacity)

3) Wireless zoom/FF - we generally run PL (Zeiss, Cooke) or just Canon (ring-adapted L-series) lenses. Keen to get some feedback on long-range capable wireless solutions for either or both (solutions that required geared lenses) - again, see the benefits of an individual solution that can be drone mounted as well as used in traditional or HH situations.

For all intents and purposes, it seems to me "all in one" copter solutions for these might provide some great aerial benefits, but limit non-aerial usage of wireless capabilities. Hence, I broke this into three areas and keen on the "best of breed" in them individually.

I'm sure there's many of you who've gone through many trials and tribulations doing this - warmly welcome your anecdotal comments as well as recommendations.

Cheers!
Darren
 
Darren - your best bet is to join some of the dedicated forums for aerials, like www.multirotorforums.com for example. You will find a wealth of information there. But here are few quick answers...:

1. There are too many to mention. DJI themselves is developing an MR platform for the RED. Skyjib is a popular platform for RED and the new HammerX from Kopterworks looks interesting too and so is the HALO-8 from Photohigher. Go to the other forums for more feedback on these various options...

2. You need two solutions - one for the pilot (FPV) and the other for the camera op. We use the DJI's LightBridge with a tiny SONY CCTV cam (http://www.helipal.com/sony-700tv-lines-ccd-camera-pal.html) for the pilot's FPV and have also several of the DJI's AVL58 older analogue downlinks. For the camera op the only system we use - and I highly recommend - is the Paralinx Tomahawk. You get your desired range with ease on the standard configuration (600+ meters / 2000+ feet) and can extend this greatly with the addition of the MIMO antenna for the receiver. I have personally tested the MIMO to over 1 km range LOS (3000+ feet) - it suppose to work up to 2 km range...

About the Lightbridge - it is heavily integrated into the DJI's controllers (not the drones themselves) - which are the common choice on other non-DJI platforms as well. We have both the A2 for multirotors and the Ace One for our single-rotor jet-powered heli. So you are not limited to DJI's aerial platforms at all if you want to use the LightBridge...

3. Unless you are planing in close-proximity flying, you are unlikely to need follow focus as most of the time you will be focused at infinity for aerials. Zoom control on the other hand is great to have. I have to admit that I am myself still looking for a great solution. For now we just use custom modified servo hooked up to the RC controller. You don't get the intelligent programming and lens tuning of the pro FIZ systems, but it does the job. The best one I have seen so far is the RTMotion system, which can now support range of up to 1500 meters (almost 5000 feet). But they are hard to get - normal wait is around 7 weeks after you have made the full payment - this is what prevents me from getting one for now...
The upcoming TILTA will have a range of 500 meters (1500 feet) - which should also be more then enough for average flying...

But the main advice I can give you is to plan for at least 6 months of in-house development and testing to make a fully working solution that you can offer to clients. One year would be even safer. There are so many related things you need to deal with that you can't even imagine right now...

And the last word - insurance. You will crash. This is inevitable. Equipments fail. For professional work you really should have at least two identical platforms (one for backup) and alternate flying them. And get the insurance - both for your gear (make sure aerial filming is legal where you are and that the policy covers it) and for 3rd party liability...

:sifone: Peter
 
I've not yet had a chance to use one myself, but the Teradek Clip is a lightweight video transmitter designed for aerial work. It's H264 over WiFi so the latency isn't as good as the Paralinx or Teradek's bolt, but it only weighs ~50 grams.
 
Peter, may I ask where you heard that DJI is developing a platform to fly a Red or similar camera? Any insight? We are trying to decide between the Hammer, Aerigon from Intuitive Aerial and also the Cinestar. The last thing we want is a RTF type unit with proprietary hardware that makes it hard to swap out parts? I am not referring to FC and video hardware, more towards the actual build itself.

Nick
 
Nick Rodriquez said:
Peter, may I ask where you heard that DJI is developing a platform to fly a Red or similar camera? Any insight? We are trying to decide between the Hammer, Aerigon from Intuitive Aerial and also the Cinestar. The last thing we want is a RTF type unit with proprietary hardware that makes it hard to swap out parts? I am not referring to FC and video hardware, more towards the actual build itself.

Nick
Click to expand...

S1200 with a Ronin
 
Nick Rodriquez said:
Peter, may I ask where you heard that DJI is developing a platform to fly a Red or similar camera? Any insight? We are trying to decide between the Hammer, Aerigon from Intuitive Aerial and also the Cinestar. The last thing we want is a RTF type unit with proprietary hardware that makes it hard to swap out parts? I am not referring to FC and video hardware, more towards the actual build itself.

Nick
Click to expand...

Nick, if you are after something that is not RTF and doesn't use proprietary parts - then you need to have a crew member that is capable of designing and building your own ship. Have a look at the Tiger motors and propellers - that is what I would choose if I was building my own ship...:

http://www.rctigermotor.com/html/products/

Having said that - you are going to find it extremely hard to get insurance on custom build, non-branded, non-RTF ship...

:sifone: Peter

PS: Zeb is right about the code name 1200 for the ship, but it will not be using the Ronin. It should be capable to use existing Ronins, but Ronin as it is - is optimized for on-the-ground operation, not aerials. You can use it for aerials (and the latest firmware is really targeted to help with that), but note that the Ronin is in its own handheld category, not inside the aerial gimbals category where you can find the Zenmuse products...
 
Wait for the S1200 II with what ever Gimbal II . . . first gen always has bugs and unfinished engineering. Their GH4 gimbal works good since it's basically a reworked GH3 model
 
Thanks for the info guys. I know all about custom builds, all of ours are that now. My statement was more geared towards if he knew of any actual info about what DJI was coming up with. I agree with your statement on the Ronin, it is not geared towards aerial work. My guess is that they will come out with something lighter for aerial work. I can't imagine many aerial needs that will need to fly 16lbs of equipment like the Ronin currently does. My expectation is the limit on the new gimbal for the S1200 or whatever it is called will be more around 12lbs.

I WISH that DJI would not just make a bigger version of the S1000. I would rather an x-type frame with motors stacked to keep size down. Instead of the term wider is better which is the route DJI is going right now.
 
you can contact me on PM or check out drones on kopterworx.com specially the professional ones. we built our own and sell others as well so we can help you to get the best you need. our HammerX is a monster. you can check our FB page as well to see all the commercials we shot with our own drones (like the latest Honda R) commercial.
 
If you are relatively new to flying a payload like this I would recommend keeping it within line of sight pretty much all the time.

that being said, if you like the power and flexibility of a Tomahawk, but need to spend a little less - Arrow-X might be an ideal choice.

Arrow-x and Tomahawk transmitters both weigh under 180 grams, and easily integrate with a copter.

arrow-X will give you a range of 600-750 feet (~200 meters+)

http://www.paralinx.net/store/paralinx-arrow-x

we will be showing at this expo in December - and are always happy to talk about aerial cinematography!

http://www.uavsa.org/droneexpo/

Hit us up and we will be happy to help!

best,

dan
 
Awesome help and advice folks - truly appreciated! Been very much looking into the Paralinx solutions as part of the kit (and obviously good mileage - no pun intended - across both aerial and non-aerial situations!)

Keen to keep this thread alive to see any other opinions - it seems particularly that the market for copters hasn't overly matured so there's a lot of options with pluses and minuses of course. Definitely seems a market still in highly geared innovation so actual experiences from experienced users is a huge plus in making a decision.

Can I ask bluntly as a baseline expectation - what is the minimum PAYLOAD CAPACITY most of you are aiming for with a Dragon kit? IMO should be aiming at least 8kg (if considering V-Lock and prime PLs?) - 6kg just seems too tight (I can get the gear down that low, but now talking the horrid uptime of Redvolts and restricted lens configurations)..

Thanks!
 
We run the Movi 10 on our Heli and also own the Ronin. Personally, I couldn't imagine wasting the weight capacity of our Heli on the Ronin. It weights 9 pounds by itself while the Movi weighs 3. I prefer the robust build of the Ronin on the ground in commercial shoots but I think that the Movi amy be the better choice in the air. Here are a few shots from our last aerial shoot flying the Epic.


c
 
V-mount is not the way to go. There are much lighter batteries available for flying. You need to choose wisely when it comes to weight. Every ounce adds up when you're flying and will determine the length of time you can stay in the air.. We use Zeiss ZF primes for flying. PL lenses will add quit a bit of weight. Just something to think about.
 
Outside of V-Mount - and assuming you're not referring the RedVolt solution - what are ppl (safely/reliably) running on their Dragons as alternate lighter weight power options?
 
That is some gorgeous footage!!! Big fan of the Movi 10 but a tad confused that you're running it on your heli - you've running ex handlebars? What heli are you using, and how are you pulling off gimbal control over longer distances? (and does this mean you're carrying the LiPo batteries as part of the payload?) Thanks for your help!
 
The Movi 10 was originally designed to fly and it works very well. We use the Heavy Lifter Cinestar 8 from www.Quadrocopter.com We have 3 different batts that are carried on our heli that power camera, heli, video downlink and Movi 10. Lot's to think about if you're doing it for the first time. Have a company that builds them guide you in the right direction.
 
Hey Darren,
There is a lot of info out there on heavy lift copters. Check our Freefly's forum, and the multi rotors forums mentioned by Peter.

To answer your questions...

1) I would either wait for the S1200 or go with a Cinestar platform. There are a lot of other frames out there, but the most efficient I've seen so far is still the Cinestar. I fly a Cinestar 8 with 500mm booms, MK electronics and T-Motors 4012. It flies extremely well with our Movi M10 carrying one of our Dragons with canon glass. Check out Quadrocopter.com to see what those kits look like.

2) The Paralinx setup is the best out there. The light bridge works, but it has latency and doesn't work with anything other than a DJI setup. Also it's a bit limiting as you don't have that many channels available for auxiliary functions such as start stop, or emergency parachute deployment.

3) Since most shots are not too close our subjects focus isn't an issue we've dealt with so far. The additional weight would take a toll on flight times, so we usually run a very stripped down camera package when it's in the air. I also like to keep things extremely clean when it comes to cables and batteries. I run the Copter off one battery and the camera/movi/paralinx off another single 4S lipo. This keeps things very simple for charging and it's as light weight as can be, which is key to having enough flight time.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions. There is a lot that goes into putting a dragon in the air, but the results can be absolutely stunning.

Cinestar 8HL by laselvasurf, on Flickr
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top