Helium questions

[Daniel Pearson]

Hi,

It appears since the release of Gemini, except a handful, most seem to have jumped ship and abandoned the Helium sensor.

I've shot on Helium Weapon once and was impressed, and with the release of DSMC2 there are some good deals on used Epic-W packages.

Outside of the frame rate and data rate bump, is there any significant advantage of DSMC2 Helium over Epic-W? Looking at the spec sheets on the Epic W and the Helium Weapon/DSMC2 the only two differences are a slight increase in compression ratio and bump in frame rates - otherwise recording formats and LUTs etc all look identical.

One other quick question, it states the camera can record Prores 2K at 120fps, is this a window or downsample of the sensor?

Any encouragement or discouragement of the Helium sensor is welcome. I've seen some stunning examples, and some not so stunning from the sensor. Mind you, I think any modern Red is a no brainer for image quality.

Thanks!

 

[Dominik Muench]

Mind you, I think any modern Red is a no brainer for image quality.

that's pretty much the answer for me, the difference between the chips/ camera systems is probably negligible for most common shooters and only required for certain people with specialized requirements.

I love my 8K helium, both for stills and motion work. if you're ever up in Qld you're welcome to take mine out for a spin and try it yourself.

 

[Brandon Obey]

No difference really, Weapon just allows you to stay at 8K and keep the same diagonal for all your shots with higher FPS. Helium sensor is a beast of its own. At the end of the day, it all comes down to lighting, truly understanding the sensor no matter what camera you have, and knowing how to process the footage correctly( a lot of ppl do not know how to do this so they will blame the camera instead acknowledging there lack of experience) If I wanted to shoot in low light I would light and expose for low lighting and not bump up the iso/asa, and vice versa for exposing for the higher range.

This video was some of the coolest helium footage I’ve seen that had me truly understanding the true capabilities you can achieve out of the Helium sensor whether its Weapon or Epic-W: https://vimeo.com/216285439

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Hi,

It appears since the release of Gemini, except a handful, most seem to have jumped ship and abandoned the Helium sensor.

You must be living in a very special bubble. SOME people doesn't mean MOST people.

I've shot on Helium Weapon once and was impressed, and with the release of DSMC2 there are some good deals on used Epic-W packages.

Outside of the frame rate and data rate bump, is there any significant advantage of DSMC2 Helium over Epic-W? Looking at the spec sheets on the Epic W and the Helium Weapon/DSMC2 the only two differences are a slight increase in compression ratio and bump in frame rates - otherwise recording formats and LUTs etc all look identical.

That really is it: on-board computer grunt power. The sensor remains the same. (Conceivably, just as Intel and AMD test just how fast their chips can run and then sell each chip according to its max measured performance, RED might sell sensors that cannot quite reach full readout speed spec as Epic-W sensors and those that can reach that speed are sold as Helium S35 sensors.)

One other quick question, it states the camera can record Prores 2K at 120fps, is this a window or downsample of the sensor?

It's a downsample of whatever resolution the sensor is shooting at. Could be a downsample of 8k, 7k, 6k, 5k, 4k, whatever.

Any encouragement or discouragement of the Helium sensor is welcome. I've seen some stunning examples, and some not so stunning from the sensor. Mind you, I think any modern Red is a no brainer for image quality.

Thanks!

 

[Daniel Pearson]

that's pretty much the answer for me, the difference between the chips/ camera systems is probably negligible for most common shooters and only required for certain people with specialized requirements.

I love my 8K helium, both for stills and motion work. if you're ever up in Qld you're welcome to take mine out for a spin and try it yourself.

Thanks Dominik, I actually moved to Brisbane in April so hopefully we can cross paths in the near future. I'm waiting for confirmation of a shoot in Nov/Dec that I think Helium would be pretty perfect for, so I'll see if it plays out and will keep you posted. You shoot with an EWA Marine housing right? I do too, so could be cool to get wet some time.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

No difference really, Weapon just allows you to stay at 8K and keep the same diagonal for all your shots with higher FPS. Helium sensor is a beast of its own. At the end of the day, it all comes down to lighting, truly understanding the sensor no matter what camera you have, and knowing how to process the footage correctly( a lot of ppl do not know how to do this so they will blame the camera instead acknowledging there lack of experience) If I wanted to shoot in low light I would light and expose for low lighting and not bump up the iso/asa, and vice versa for exposing for the higher range.

This video was some of the coolest helium footage I’ve seen that had me truly understanding the true capabilities you can achieve out of the Helium sensor whether its Weapon or Epic-W: https://vimeo.com/216285439

Thanks Brandon. It is funny, when Helium came out everyone raved about its low light capability compared to Dragon, now Gemini has been released people seem to think Helium is a low sensitivity sensor. The one time I have shot Helium it was available light in a dance studio, but the colourist pushed it to 4000 ISO and with some NR it came up beautifully in both 4K and HD, so I think it is ample for my needs.

Regarding the processing of Helium, how do you find it is different to Dragon?

 

[Daniel Pearson]

You must be living in a very special bubble. SOME people doesn't mean MOST people.



That really is it: on-board computer grunt power. The sensor remains the same. (Conceivably, just as Intel and AMD test just how fast their chips can run and then sell each chip according to its max measured performance, RED might sell sensors that cannot quite reach full readout speed spec as Epic-W sensors and those that can reach that speed are sold as Helium S35 sensors.)



It's a downsample of whatever resolution the sensor is shooting at. Could be a downsample of 8k, 7k, 6k, 5k, 4k, whatever.

Thanks Michael, good to know. I think the rave is all about Gemini as the new big thing, but I'm just weighing up which sensor will suit my most common needs. As much as the high frame rate of the Gemini is appealing, I'm also attracted to the 8K of Helium. I don't need 8K, but I like to shoot on a range of lenses including zooms and vintage like Speed Panchros, so I think being able to drop down the sensor size and still record at 7K is more attractive than the idea of dropping Gemini to 4.5/4K.

Thanks for the info re: Prores, though I currently always shoot R3D it is good to know you can get a great downsampled prores in camera.

Cheers!

 

[Daniel Pearson]

Oh, and my comment regarding the jumping ship from Helium related to the wave of owners that seemed to jump from Epic-W to Gemini when it was released, and the fact that the Gemini sub-forum is far more active than Helium.

Cheers!

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Oh, and my comment regarding the jumping ship from Helium related to the wave of owners that seemed to jump from Epic-W to Gemini when it was released, and the fact that the Gemini sub-forum is far more active than Helium.

Cheers!

Thanks for the clarification. As the owner of two Helium S35 cameras, I don't even think of Epic-W when somebody says Helium. So my bad for not really understanding the point you were making.

 

[Brandon Obey]

More cleaner and more organic noise. Very rich across the board from shadows to highlights. Though Dragon is its own animal too. I loved my Scarlet-W. Dragon has richness too ex: Gone Girl, Narcos, Mindhunter. I love both sensors. A sensor’s flaw can be its character in the hands of the right shooter.

Gemini is cool too. Taste wise the image looks looks more like a dslr at higher iso/asa, bc you are stretching the signal for more range as opposed to exposing for that range in the first place. And for that amount of money that the Gemini cost, I might as well get an Alexa XT (ready 2 shoot kit), some DS Voyagers, and a A7S2. But I love the diagonal of the Gemini and the fact u get more height when shooting anamorphic.

Again all the sensors are just the new film stocks for today they all come with pros and cons.

Remember everyone used to grip about the ISO Calibration until they figured out how to use it correctly.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

Thanks for the clarification. As the owner of two Helium S35 cameras, I don't even think of Epic-W when somebody says Helium. So my bad for not really understanding the point you were making.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your input. My main interest is due to the availability of pretty good Epic-W packages and then utilising the $5000 upgrade to Helium DSMC2. As it stands, that route and a brand new Gemini are looking to be about the same price so it is good to get some Helium owner input.

Cheers!

 

[Jon Dishler]

More cleaner and more organic noise. Very rich across the board from shadows to highlights. Though Dragon is its own animal too. I loved my Scarlet-W. Dragon has richness too ex: Gone Girl, Narcos, Mindhunter. I love both sensors. A sensor’s flaw can be its character in the hands of the right shooter.

Gemini is cool too. Taste wise the image looks looks more like a dslr at higher iso/asa, bc you are stretching the signal for more range as opposed to exposing for that range in the first place. And for that amount of money that the Gemini cost, I might as well get an Alexa XT (ready 2 shoot kit), some DS Voyagers, and a A7S2. But I love the diagonal of the Gemini and the fact u get more height when shooting anamorphic.

Again all the sensors are just the new film stocks for today they all come with pros and cons.

Remember everyone used to grip about the ISO Calibration until they figured out how to use it correctly.

I did not want to be the one to say this, and I have not played with one personally, but from everything I have seen posted, just not that impressed with Gemini low light except for the reduced noise. I had the same impression that the image at very high ISO looks like a DSLR whereas the Helium properly exposed to ISO 800 (which at 1/48 second shutter) is magnificent. It really does not need much light and holds up well at 1600 as well. This is with the new calibration too! More often than not, I need ND's to reduce the light even indoors. It is especially clean with downrez to 4k or 2k. At higher speeds, the shutter speed requires more light but not so much at 60fps with 1/60 which is usually as slow-motion as I get and still can capture 8k (75 fps in widescreen). I think Helium is perfect, but maybe that is just me. I much prefer it to the Scarlet W that I had previously.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Former Weapon Helium owner, who stepped up from Epic Dragon. Now on Monstro.

The Helium is a great sensor. Most people that jumped from Epic W to Gemini did it, in my opinion, not because of image quality, but the crop factor in certain high speed scenarios as well as the extra low light capabilities.

I shoot lots of motorsport so Helium's bigger crop (but no loss in resolution) for high speed was actually beneficial for certain tele lenses requirements. The Monstro creates me lenses headaches!

In terms of image quality, I've never been disappointed with Helium. It has a bit of a green character to it, but you can easily give it the look you want in grading, like any other Red camera.

8K 2:1 in Helium is absolutely stunning and is most compatible with any cinema lens and fine still glass out there. And at 60fps max you are future proofed beyond the Olympics 8K craze. Something to bear in mind.

I wouldn't hesitate to get another Weapon Helium. As for Gemini, I would only go there if I needed extreme low light, which is something I really don't need. And Helium is really quite good in that aspect also. Better than my Epic Dragon with LLO OLPF, which was already no slouch!

 

[Daniel Pearson]

More cleaner and more organic noise. Very rich across the board from shadows to highlights. Though Dragon is its own animal too. I loved my Scarlet-W. Dragon has richness too ex: Gone Girl, Narcos, Mindhunter. I love both sensors. A sensor’s flaw can be its character in the hands of the right shooter.

Gemini is cool too. Taste wise the image looks looks more like a dslr at higher iso/asa, bc you are stretching the signal for more range as opposed to exposing for that range in the first place. And for that amount of money that the Gemini cost, I might as well get an Alexa XT (ready 2 shoot kit), some DS Voyagers, and a A7S2. But I love the diagonal of the Gemini and the fact u get more height when shooting anamorphic.

Again all the sensors are just the new film stocks for today they all come with pros and cons.

Remember everyone used to grip about the ISO Calibration until they figured out how to use it correctly.

Thanks Brandon, I agree regarding great shows shot on Dragon but I've been really happy with what I've seen from Helium as well, including the second season of American Vandal.

Cheers!

 

[Daniel Pearson]

I did not want to be the one to say this, and I have not played with one personally, but from everything I have seen posted, just not that impressed with Gemini low light except for the reduced noise. I had the same impression that the image at very high ISO looks like a DSLR whereas the Helium properly exposed to ISO 800 (which at 1/48 second shutter) is magnificent. It really does not need much light and holds up well at 1600 as well. This is with the new calibration too! More often than not, I need ND's to reduce the light even indoors. It is especially clean with downrez to 4k or 2k. At higher speeds, the shutter speed requires more light but not so much at 60fps with 1/60 which is usually as slow-motion as I get and still can capture 8k (75 fps in widescreen). I think Helium is perfect, but maybe that is just me. I much prefer it to the Scarlet W that I had previously.

I shoot in a lot of available light, or available light with minimal tweaking/additions, but I wouldn't say the work I do is overly low light. But people love low light capability.

I do think the frame rates of the Gemini are appealing, but with the plan to upgrade any Epic W purchase to DSMC2 Helium the extra frame rates aren't really a deal breaker.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

In terms of image quality, I've never been disappointed with Helium. It has a bit of a green character to it, but you can easily give it the look you want in grading, like any other Red camera.

8K 2:1 in Helium is absolutely stunning and is most compatible with any cinema lens and fine still glass out there. And at 60fps max you are future proofed beyond the Olympics 8K craze. Something to bear in mind.

I wouldn't hesitate to get another Weapon Helium. As for Gemini, I would only go there if I needed extreme low light, which is something I really don't need. And Helium is really quite good in that aspect also. Better than my Epic Dragon with LLO OLPF, which was already no slouch!

I liked the results I got out of it - which says enough - but I have seen some great examples.

Thanks for taking the time to input, this thread has been encouraging if I do end up going in the Helium direction.

Cheers!

 

[paulcurtis]

It would be interesting to see some quantifiable stats about how many did move to Gemini.

Clearly the latest and greatest is always going to get the traffic and anyone who moves is very unlikely to say anything bad about it because unconscious bias means they've already made their mind up to make the purchase and relegate the previous version.

Blind side by sides would be fun to see whether people can see the difference (once graded, as in final products).

It's taken me quite a few years to get to the point where i am happy the tools are plenty good enough, i am still as happy with the results out of the Epic W that i was when i first got it and these days the money is in lighting and production design. I very much doubt that i would see a big enough difference at normal shooting situations between the two. Monstro probably would make a difference but Gemini vs Helium, probably not and i like the 8K source to crop a bit. I've pushed Epic to 6400 and it's okay - i mean if you're shooting at that then there's an environmental reason for it so you accept it. If you find yourself always shooting 6400 then sure maybe Gemini is best. I once did a side by side between my a7sII and EpicW and when you deliver UHD or HD there's not that much difference between them, you can push Epic pretty close.

They're both amazing cameras.

cheers
Paul

 

[Daniel Pearson]

It would be interesting to see some quantifiable stats about how many did move to Gemini.

Clearly the latest and greatest is always going to get the traffic and anyone who moves is very unlikely to say anything bad about it because unconscious bias means they've already made their mind up to make the purchase and relegate the previous version.

Blind side by sides would be fun to see whether people can see the difference (once graded, as in final products).

It's taken me quite a few years to get to the point where i am happy the tools are plenty good enough, i am still as happy with the results out of the Epic W that i was when i first got it and these days the money is in lighting and production design. I very much doubt that i would see a big enough difference at normal shooting situations between the two. Monstro probably would make a difference but Gemini vs Helium, probably not and i like the 8K source to crop a bit. I've pushed Epic to 6400 and it's okay - i mean if you're shooting at that then there's an environmental reason for it so you accept it. If you find yourself always shooting 6400 then sure maybe Gemini is best. I once did a side by side between my a7sII and EpicW and when you deliver UHD or HD there's not that much difference between them, you can push Epic pretty close.

They're both amazing cameras.

cheers
Paul

Thanks Paul, I agree regarding lighting and production. I've been pretty satisfied with my Scarlet MX for years and just renting. Mind you, it is starting to get long in the tooth and I'm looking to see what the best option for the next few years is. As said, from Dragon on you can't really go too wrong.

 

[Dominik Muench]

Thanks Dominik, I actually moved to Brisbane in April so hopefully we can cross paths in the near future. I'm waiting for confirmation of a shoot in Nov/Dec that I think Helium would be pretty perfect for, so I'll see if it plays out and will keep you posted. You shoot with an EWA Marine housing right? I do too, so could be cool to get wet some time.

oh cool yeah even if you want to come down to the coast for a day and check it out, I use the EWA pack for pool and shallow water shots yes. anything more serious I hire a hardcase housing.

 

[Scot Yount]

Oh, and my comment regarding the jumping ship from Helium related to the wave of owners that seemed to jump from Epic-W to Gemini when it was released, and the fact that the Gemini sub-forum is far more active than Helium.

You answered your own question here. That "wave" of owners is a wave of people who bother to spend time on REDUSER. I love this forum, but I always try to remember the large number of people who buy and or use these cameras but don't necessarily spend much time posting about it.