Helium and Gemini same price at B&H

[Jim Skinner]

Appears to be a $10K price drop on Helium at B&H. It’s now the same price as Gemini. So which is the better deal?

 

[Sergio Perez]

that’s an epic w, not a dsmc2
Helium.

 

[Jim Skinner]

that’s an epic w, not a dsmc2
Helium.

That camera is not correctly identified as an older model, it is literally listed as a “Red Helium”. The listing also says “takes DSMC2 accessories”. So if you buy that camera, you then get to find out later that it’s not in the currently supported “unified” line-up? It seems like there is always some unpleasant surprise with Red.

There is an expectation that B&H sells shipping, supported gear, but Epic W is not a member of the unified line-up.

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

It seems like there is always some unpleasant surprise with Red.

I usually find Red pretty straight forward and transparent. This is a B&H problem.

 

[Ari Morales]

That camera is not correctly identified as an older model, it is literally listed as a “Red Helium”. So if you buy that camera, you then get to find out later that it’s not in the currently supported “unified” line-up? It seems like there is always some unpleasant surprise with Red.

On your screenshot it even says RED Digital Cinema EPIC-W on the very first line of the description. RED discontinued the EPIC-W to try and make it easier for us all; Now it is Body Style and Sensor Type (DSMC2 Helium). Since RED doesn't run B&H's website, I wouldn't blame RED for any confusion on the way the EPIC-W is described.

Honestly, if I am spending 10's of thousands of dollars, you better believe I'm going to match up the part number with what I am looking to buy before I click the Buy button.

 

[Jim Skinner]

I usually find Red pretty straight forward and transparent. This is a B&H problem.

Looking closer at the Red listings on B&H, you can see it’s actually a complete mess:

One camera has a “brain” that is at the DSMC2 level
One camera just has DSMC2 in the title
And one camera doesn’t list the body style at all (this info is omitted)

The folks on this forum know that there are 2 levels of DSMC2, but this important info is nowhere to be found on the B&H site. The site veers between misrepresentation and “kinda of close to accurate”.

This kind of stuff matters, it seems like Red should be a bit more involved in how their camera offerings are portrayed by partners. Maybe this is why extremely controlled brands like Apple just simply set up their own stores.

 

[Jim Skinner]

B&H listing

B&H listing

Here’s the top results at B&H for Red cameras. Some of the “kits” drop all info on the body version (and some include it). And the body images all look identical. It would be hard for someone new to the brand to understand what they were ordering.

 

[Nick Gardner]

This seems about exactly B&H's speed.

 

[Neil Abeynayake]

Looking closer at the Red listings on B&H, you can see it’s actually a complete mess:

This kind of stuff matters, it seems like Red should be a bit more involved in how their camera offerings are portrayed by partners. Maybe this is why extremely controlled brands like Apple just simply set up their own stores.

Did you know that Apple also offer most "Apple" products through B&H website as well?

Here’s the top results at B&H for Red cameras. Some of the “kits” drop all info on the body version (and some include it). And the body images all look identical. It would be hard for someone new to the brand to understand what they were ordering.

First thing a "sane" person who intends in purchasing a new RED or any other camera does is to check out the manufacturer's website. Thereafter, that person can call the order line and ask questions. They could also check manufacturer supported forums and ask more questions. If they are still confused, they could visit a renting agency and rent the camera of your choice. In addition, you could call B&H and speak with a customer support or a sales person about your purchase. Buying a very expensive camera online is the last thing they do to acquire that product.

As Ari stated, this is an issue B&H needs to correct. If B&H webpage is not up to your standards perhaps, you may want to call them and let them know.

 

[Henry Posner]

B&H has Red DSMC2 at https://bhpho.to/2RCm5nO and Epic W at https://bhpho.to/2RBR3g7.

All Unified RED camera systems are clearly identified as DSMC2. Other cameras are listed exactly as what they are. All cameras are new stock, some are older models we discount to make them more attractive.

The best way to search RED DIGITAL CINEMA cameras is to go to:
- Professional Video
- Digital Cinema Cameras
- Under Brands select RED DIGITAL CINEMA
- Select by Camera Model

If there are further questions, our professional solutions team specialize in RED camera systems and would be more than happy to assist.

 

[Ari Morales]

Did you know that Apple also offer most "Apple" products through B&H website as well?



First thing a "sane" person who intends in purchasing a new RED or any other camera does is to check out the manufacturer's website. Thereafter, that person can call the order line and ask questions. They could also check manufacturer supported forums and ask more questions. If they are still confused, they could visit a renting agency and rent the camera of your choice. In addition, you could call B&H and speak with a customer support or a sales person about your purchase. Buying a very expensive camera online is the last thing they do to acquire that product.

As Ari stated, this is an issue B&H needs to correct. If B&H webpage is not up to your standards perhaps, you may want to call them and let them know.

:thumbsup:

 

[Jim Skinner]

Thanks for joining the thread B&H

Thanks for joining the thread B&H

B&H has Red DSMC2 at https://bhpho.to/2RCm5nO and Epic W at https://bhpho.to/2RBR3g7.

All Unified RED camera systems are clearly identified as DSMC2. Other cameras are listed exactly as what they are. All cameras are new stock, some are older models we discount to make them more attractive.

The best way to search RED DIGITAL CINEMA cameras is to go to:
- Professional Video
- Digital Cinema Cameras
- Under Brands select RED DIGITAL CINEMA
- Select by Camera Model

If there are further questions, our professional solutions team specialize in RED camera systems and would be more than happy to assist.

Thanks for joining the thread Henry. For my work at Twitter your store was the single most important filmmaking resource. It’s great to hear from you on this thread.

I want to give you some context on the confusion that Red has caused by keeping the DSMC2 name on different versions of hardware. With the Dragon-X announcement the “older” entry level cameras (Raven and Scarlet-W) are now headed for “we won’t upgrade you” land. Raven always lived in “we won’t upgrade you” land, and Scarlet-W is now heading there. To stay on upgrade path Scarlet-W owners need to pay $5k. While Dragon-X owners don’t. So the Scarlet-W is now worth $5k less to the community.

It is extremely difficult to discuss pricing in this board, you can expect to see a lot of flames after this post, but the one idea I want to get across is that Red had been promising that an investment in DSMC2 would keep your camera on the upgrade path. There are now a couple cameras that are headed to “no upgrade” land. The Epic-W and the Scarlet-W are the main ones. They are the “old” bodies, while Helium DSMC2 is one of the new DSMC2 bodies.

But WAIT, the Epic-W has a Helium chip in it. Your listing even says it “uses DSMC2 accessories”. So isn’t that one of the new Helium cameras? Folks on this thread know 1) it’s the old body 2) it’s headed for no support land 3) making it much less valuable. You in fact took $10k off the price, so you clearly agree the old cameras are less valuable. But you market it with the same name (Helium) as one of the new models. There is nothing in your listing that says this camera is not the current Helium model (your listing requires the buyer to have an encyclopedic knowledge of Red bodies to figure out that it’s the “wrong” Helium).

Imagine if buying a c300 was this hard. “Oh that’s the wrong c300 version, I know they both have the same name, but that’s not the new one”.

The previous poster actually said the right way to buy a Red camera is to come to this forum and read all the posts, so you can figure out which DSMC2 body is the right one, and which one is the dead-end one. What I love about B&H is that I only need to read your description and the user reviews to figure out what to get. Twitter spent all our production hardware money this way for the last 5 years and we didn’t regret it once. You have one product on your site, however, that uses one name across multiple product generations (without the standard Mark 1, Mark 2 notation). You can easily fix that by putting “older version” in the description of the Epic-W and the Scarlet-W. In your post you referred to Epic-W as an older version, why won’t you do that on your site?

You can maintain customer trust by correctly describing older Red camera models (that are soon to be dropped from the upgrade path).

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Btw it would have not been a 10k drop but 5k, as the DSMC2 Helium Brain is $24,500 https://www.red.com/DSMC2-BRAIN?quantity=1&sensor=2

As for B&H they are literally all over the wall on RED listings, posting stuff that RED is not even making anymore, with price errors all over the board.