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Helicopter Filming - Nose Mount vs Mini Gyro?

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C Barker

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Hi there,

I'm planning a series of helicopter shoots and was wondering if people who have experience in this field could offer their advice.

We're attempting to get POV "flying forward" shots and I understand that using a Nose Mount would probably be optimal for this. However, due to financial constraints (particularly since we are planning on filming in three different locations) using a Mini Gyro whilst flying sideways would be a more appealing option.

There is an example of the Mini Gyro (at 0:55) here which is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. However, other Mini Gyro clips I've found have not been quite as convincing in their steadiness and overall quality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCr23IxkHnI&list=PLKKmzBEaRw2Euvvmg-APXZZAhyqHYwOA8&index=10

Since I am budgeting so much for the helicopters it would be a huge shame to be disappointed with the results from using the Mini Gyro but due to the savings it would be greatly preferred if it can produce very similar results. FYI, my DOP and I have no previous experience with aerial filming if that helps.

Any thoughts or advice on whether the Mini Gryo would produce very similar results to the more expensive Nose Mount would be greatly appreciated!
 
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A helicopter flies best going forward. A mount like the Shotover system would be ideal. http://www.shotover.com

Anything else is less. Asking a helicopter to crab is not going to give the best performance for a forward motion shot, although it can be done.

Depends on your budget. If Tom Lowe or Mark Toia sees this thread, let them tell you their thoughts about the Shotover setup.

As for the Tyler mini gyro, since I've used it before, I would probably suggest the new Kenyon X series gyro setup over the Tyler, just my opinion. I haven't used the new Kenyon yet, but it certainly looks like it would be much more compact and stable versus the Tyler. See here: http://www.ken-lab.com
 
I have shot a bit with the tyler mini gyro. I would say it depends on your shot, your pilot and your chopper. I am not sure where you are located but I would recommend talking with Tom Miller (415) 726-6644 http://www.blueskyaerials.com He has the tyler mini gyro and the tyler nose mount and can probably answer your question.
 
Thanks very much for the info.

Another option for us could be to use a Middle Mount instead of a Mini Gyro.

If anyone has any thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated!
 
I wouldn't put the middle mount in the same class as the gyro stabilized systems such as Spacecam or Eclipse. You'll still spend a fair amount of time or money stabilizing the footage.

Contact me off-list (cj at axiomimages.com). Maybe we can help with recommendations, or know of a system in the area help reduce costs.
 
Done a lot of aerials with cars ....Nose mount is worth every sent for that got u by the balls majestic landscapes.

Side mounts are great for chasing moving objects thru landscapes you want to see the sides of eg cars, horses, etc. or circling type shots.

However there is now a third solution ...drone ...octocopter or others can now do the above for less . Whilst Octo's can't get the speeds for landscape type shots there are other drone solutions out there that have the speed.

I suspect if you go the side mount & try to get that forward pov even with a skilled plot "flying for camera" you will be dissappointed.
 
Mike Garrick said:
I suspect if you go the side mount & try to get that forward pov even with a skilled plot "flying for camera" you will be dissappointed.
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Thanks, this is exactly what I'm worried about. If anyone has any experience with sideways flying to emulate forwards flying (or if there are any video examples of this) I would be very interested to learn more on how effective it actually is.

An important question I forgot to ask initially: is using a Bell Jet Ranger worth almost twice the price of an R44? If I use the much cheaper R44 option it may be possible to budget for Nose Mounts on all 3 flights - if I use the more expensive helicopters I would have to use a Mini Gyro and film sideways. Are the cheaper helicopters less stable or is it more of a case of flying speed or another variable? At this stage it would really be only feasible to fly forward in an R44 or sideways in a Bell Jet Ranger to get these "flying forward" shots so I would be very grateful if anyone could advise which option would be best.
 
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I've done aerial shoots in every possible way, and the biggest problem with middle mounts/or handheld out the side is the horizon stabilization needed afterwards. We get a lot of submissions from people shooting this way, and it's usually just not at the quality level our customer base expects. You can search vimeo and can instantly tell what was a handheld mount, or a middle mount by the stabilization artifacts. For our aerial libraries, we've chosen to use only gyro stabilized produced footage because the difference is significant.

Also, when doing the approaching shots sideways, the other issue is that the blades have to dip down to get any decent speed. This causes the air to get chopped up and can cause more vibration, making it more difficult for the operator.

Where are you trying to shoot? If you can get away with not shooting epic, there might be more gyro-stabilised options available to you, in more locations.
 
CJ Roy said:
I've done aerial shoots in every possible way, and the biggest problem with middle mounts/or handheld out the side is the horizon stabilization needed afterwards. We get a lot of submissions from people shooting this way, and it's usually just not at the quality level our customer base expects. You can search vimeo and can instantly tell what was a handheld mount, or a middle mount by the stabilization artifacts. For our aerial libraries, we've chosen to use only gyro stabilized produced footage because the difference is significant.

Also, when doing the approaching shots sideways, the other issue is that the blades have to dip down to get any decent speed. This causes the air to get chopped up and can cause more vibration, making it more difficult for the operator.

Where are you trying to shoot? If you can get away with not shooting epic, there might be more gyro-stabilised options available to you, in more locations.
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Thanks very much for the info CJ.

FYI we'll be shooting in Baltimore, the Rocky Mountains (CO) and San Francisco.

We would very much like to use our own camera if possible, which is a Scarlet - do you know if this would produce good results in the Tyler Nose Mount or would there be stabilization issues?
 
From what I've seen, the Tyler nose mount isn't steady enough for CMOS sensors. The image turns to jello, due to the rolling shutter. I'm not sure if Tyler's made any recent improvements, but it's generally not considered in the same ballpark as the larger systems.

What type of shooting is this? Generic location, or specific elements?
 
CJ Roy said:
From what I've seen, the Tyler nose mount isn't steady enough for CMOS sensors. The image turns to jello, due to the rolling shutter. I'm not sure if Tyler's made any recent improvements, but it's generally not considered in the same ballpark as the larger systems.

What type of shooting is this? Generic location, or specific elements?
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Thanks for the info - so there's a high chance of Tyler Nose mounted footage being totally unusable for Scarlet, rather than something that could be rectified in post? Unfortunately we're on quite a tight budget, so the larger systems you suggested may be out of our budget if they're substantially more expensive.

We will be shooting both generic location and specific elements.
 
I try to stay away from the Robinsons as well.

*Edit - I should say that helicopters in general can be risky, and they do go down all the time. A well known film pilot crashed and killed his crew just north of LA a few months ago, in a jet ranger. Late last year an Astar got trapped in fog in London and crashed into a crane. It happens too often, with many types of aircraft, and you want to make sure you have a very experienced pilot used to the type of shooting you want to do.

Tour pilots and maybe even news pilots (not all) aren't really used to flying as close to objects as filmmakers usually demand. Safety should really be the top priority, as no film is worth anyone's life.
 
I have shot with the Tyler Mini Gyro in a R44 with decent results. It would not be my first choice of setup but thats what the budget made us do. We were shooting sideways so can not tell you what trying to get a front POV would be like.

One secret with the Tyler Mini Gyro is to keep the camera to the least weight possible for the best results, so strip all unnecessary accessories of your camera rig. This will also aid in making your rig move useable and manageable in a R44 as space is very tight.

Another trick is to use the Gyro and camera from well inside the helicopter to minimise wind buffering. I will normally set the base of the mini gyro on a foam pad between the two rear seats.
 
CJ Roy said:
the biggest problem with middle mounts/or handheld out the side is the horizon stabilization needed afterwards
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So the main problem with flying sideways for frontal POV shots is stabilization? Even with the Mini Gyro & Middle Mount's gyro-stabilization capabilities? Or is it a case of not being able to keep the horizon even?

Alternatively is the problem more to do with flying more erratically this way and not producing a convincing frontal POV style?

If there's any footage illustrating flying sideways for frontal POV shots out there I'd be very thankful to see it!
 
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Yeah, and don't get me wrong, each gimbal has its own little quirks as well. But you can definitely spot middle mount or handheld. It's more floaty and the horizon is moving back and forth by quite a few degrees. I've tried stabilizing it, but because it's essentially on the roll axis, so the resolution dropped to something not worth using. They're designed to float and rely on the gyros to keep it steady but it tends to want to pull itself in a direction or another, so the operator is constantly fighting that. That, on top of being in a moving aircraft that feels like a you've been sitting on a paint can shaker after a while, wind and other issues.

If you're going to use a mini, try one out while walking around and see how comfortable you can get with it. I don't doubt you can get it to work, but you just won't be getting those epic types of shots that we see in modern cinema. But I'm not sure what you're going after.
 
CJ Roy said:
Yeah, and don't get me wrong, each gimbal has its own little quirks as well. But you can definitely spot middle mount or handheld. It's more floaty and the horizon is moving back and forth by quite a few degrees. I've tried stabilizing it, but because it's essentially on the roll axis, so the resolution dropped to something not worth using. They're designed to float and rely on the gyros to keep it steady but it tends to want to pull itself in a direction or another, so the operator is constantly fighting that. That, on top of being in a moving aircraft that feels like a you've been sitting on a paint can shaker after a while, wind and other issues.

If you're going to use a mini, try one out while walking around and see how comfortable you can get with it. I don't doubt you can get it to work, but you just won't be getting those epic types of shots that we see in modern cinema. But I'm not sure what you're going after.
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Its just that the Mini and Middle mount footage here looks great - especially the Mini around 0:55, which are very similar to some of the shots I need. Or perhaps this is just a very well done example, possibly heavily stabilized in post?

Additionally these Mini shots were shot flying sideways-for-forwards I presume, unless they shot out of the front window somehow.

Is there a reason why my footage wouldn't look as good as this if I went for the Mini Gyro and sideways flying option?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCr23IxkHnI
 
C Barker said:
Its just that the Mini and Middle mount footage here looks great - especially the Mini around 0:55, which are very similar to some of the shots I need. Or perhaps this is just a very well done example, possibly heavily stabilized in post?

Additionally these Mini shots were shot flying sideways-for-forwards I presume, unless they shot out of the front window somehow.

Is there a reason why my footage wouldn't look as good as this if I went for the Mini Gyro and sideways flying option?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCr23IxkHnI
Click to expand...

You can certainly get good footage doing it as described. If you really want to go guerrilla, I have even used my R1 sitting in a cine saddle held in my arms and had good results. Is it preferred? Hardly. But there wasn't any room in the copilot seat I was in, certainly not for something like a Tyler Mini Gyro. And that was in a Jet Ranger.

The R22 or R44 are go-kart sized, you'll be sitting one cheek in, one out. You might want to stop by the local airport and get a feel for what will work, because I have a suspicion that once you do, you'll rethink some things. YMMV.
 
Thanks very much.

So we're now looking at either:
1) Nose Mount
2) Mini Gyro (flying sideways)
3) Middle Mount (flying sideways)

If anyone can weigh in on which would be the best option of these for getting frontal POV shots (with the Scarlet and with all things considered) it would be hugely appreciated!
 
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