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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HDSDI Output -- 1080 to an External Deck?

Great post Mike,

The big missing link is SPEED of the downconvert. A deck or hardware device that could do a decent IQ 1080/or720 downconvert in real time is whats needed. In it's current implementation RedCine is not this.

It will be very hard for me to get producers on board with the time it takes to downconvert to a platform agnostic format like 1080p tape (ie not a quicktime)
 
Hi All,
Maybe what we need here is Red with three workable options.
Red optioned up for 1080p. up to? fps
Red optioned up for 2K RAW scaled, up to 60fps
Red optioned up for 4K RAW & varispeed at 2K windowed. 75+fps
You could have your camera re-optioned at the factory (or agents) for a fee
(Red could make some money) get the latest firmware upgrade
and service/check-up and other goodies.
People could set up their camera for whatever project requirement
they need, 1080p,2KRAW scaled,4KRAW.
Trying to get this camera to meet all needs seems to be the problem
here, yet it probably has the potential do everything required in the
long term if split into three options or maybe even two.
We do the same thing now with Super 35 & 3 perf in the film industry.
Just some food for thought.
Mezmo
 
MikeCurtis said:
Mitch's comments about the difficulty point out that it is tough, but this is something that has been oftened described in the past as 'gonna happen' without the "Oh, only if you are shooting 1080p RGB" caveat.

ALL LIVE PRODUCTION will require this capability, and I'd be astounded if Red didn't deliver an at least decent looking 1080p out the single/dual link HD-SDI taps - that was the message they were giving in the past. All specs subject to change, right right right, but this is an "OH!" change, not a "Hmm...." change.

Since 1080p output has been deprioritized (that alternate build of the firmware was the last iteration of the concept I recall), that puts live production waaaaaay down the line from where we stand now.

The need is still high for 1080p60 (or p50) recording - any full aperture, broadcast bound work will require this - and some shows have a tape based workflow that they don't want to reinvent the wheel for - so HD-SDI based recording works for them.

Personally, if Red can't get high quality deBayer done in camera, or the cost is too high to fit within the current price point, in order of preference, I'd like to see:

1.) a plus cost option that DOES offer high quality, from in camera, to 1080p. Sucky PR to be dealt with, but hey, that's what it takes.

2.) Barring that, an outboard box that connects to the High Speed Port (or replaces it if it is small enough) that has two, full-size, HD-SDI taps on it, that outputs a high quality debayer, optimal 1080p, yadda yadda

3.) Variants on the above:
a.) there is a SMPTE spec for 2Kx1080 12 bit up to 24p - OK, we'll take that too!
b.) there is a spec and hardware for a single HD-SDI that can contain dual link signals (is on the HDLink Pro from Blackmagic already) that would allow for 1080i60 AND 1080p60 4:2:2 AND 1080p30 4:4:4. Use that.
c.) or, just two BNCs with the same options of 1080p23.976/24.0/25/29.97/30.0/50/59.94 in 4:2:2, and 1080p up to 30fps in 4:4:4, or two cloned outputs of the same 1080i or 1080p (up to 30p) in 4:2:2

My $0.02.

Otherwise, if they don't, Red becomes much more of a niche camera, not so much of an industry busting, genre crossing monster we hoped it would be. A low cost indie cinema/commercial/documentary camera is an AWESOME thing with the existing specs...I'm just sayin' it could be better, sell more, etc. if it had proper live and HD-SDI capabilities.

-mike
Click to expand...

By the way, I just hired Mike Curtis for a one hour consultation. He tells it like it is and makes sure you get your money's worth.
 
Mitch - your pinpoint conciseness (concission?) is, as ever, appreciated. I just wrote a huge long thing that....you did in a few sentences. YES - different tools for different environments, even if it MIGHT be the same thing with different add-in boards.

Tim - thanks for the plug, much appreciated!
 
further thoughts - scaling double 1080p (3840x2160) will be quick, clean, and less expensive, BUT....you better have reticles for it, or a "Double HD" or "3.8K" recording mode so your footage will match if you need it to! If your framing is slightly different, or your crop, think of the horrific headaches that could cause later - masks/mattes not fitting, text covering something, etc. etc. etc. MUCH hair pulling would ensue.

So Proceed With Caution.

-mike
 
Mickjoebill said:
I'm testing the new P2 3000 camera from Panasonic now.
Since AVC I codec doesnt quite yet talk to an Apple I've been using its full spec HDSDI output, very handy until it all comes together.
Click to expand...

Any comments on the HPX3000 camera vs. F900, HPX2000, or F23?
 
Mitch Gross said:
You can be nosy all you want my friend, but it doesn't mean that officially or not I can provide an answer right now!

Abel likes RED, and I'd like to think RED likes Abel.

Mitch
Click to expand...

Hey Mitch...

Cool to speak with you.. I've been talking a LOT with Steve on the ARRI group buy as we've selected Abel as our REP company in the deal.. So far everyone seems quite happy!

Jay
 
Mitch Gross said:
This is an interesting thread, but I see it splitting in two directions, namely on set tools and post tools. This is a common problem to all of the Digital Cinema cameras with the elimination of the playback deck and the merging of what was production work into post.

I think the RED Box is a great idea but it might be a bit much for many people to have on set and a lot of what people are asking for can be dealt with more simply. Here's what I see as the three basic uses of a 1080p output on set.

1 - Focus assist. Get the highest resolution possible for judging focus.
2 - Framing & lighting judgement. This is how most professionals choose to work, even when they know that they have room to adjust in post. It is a basis from which to begin to judge the image.
3 - A clean 1080p output to send to a switcher, deck or whatever.

Here's how I would propose to attempt to deal with this in camera. For (1) Focus Assist, I would say a switchable 1-to-1 pixel or a magnified pixel window, say an 8x8 pixel square blown up to 80x80. It would be great to move this around the image. For (2) Framing & Lighting, I would suggest getting the entire 4K image down into 1080 and don't worry about the artifacts of remapping the image. This is just to see the frame. It might even be nice to show the full sensor image (beyond 4k) all within 1080 with a frameline indicating the 4k recorded image. For (3) a Clean 1080p, if option (2) yields artifacts that are unacceptable, I propose a frame that is a simple 2x zoom of 3840x2160 (double 1920x1080) which should be a very clean image. This would be good for those posting to a deck, feeding a switcher, etc.

If it is a problem for the RED One to output both one of these 1080p variants along with the 720p for the viewfinder/LCD, then I would suggest favoring the 1080p and offering a small crossconverter option for the 720p. This is a common enough circuit that shouldn't be particularly expensive.

Perhaps the finer points of these options could be open for change, but I think that they would answer most of the issues where people are calling for 1080p on the camera. The RED Box can serve as a lovely tool for post work, even the work that begins on set. But let the camera serve as a camera.

Mitch gross
Technical Director of Rental
Abel Cine Tech
Click to expand...

Hi Mitch ,
Just to recap.
The problem seems to be as I understand it Red can't output clean
1080p unless the camera is set up to shoot 1080p not 4K RAW.
As the Red guys say 1080p will then fall out of the HDSDI outputs.
Hence the idea of an outboard device like the Mark Pederson's Red box or David
Newman's RAW out by HDSDI is so the camera can still shoot 4k RAW
but 1080p options or RAW outboard options can still come into play.
Mike Curtis seems to want to strap a Macpro to his back, run around and
capture uncompressed via a AJA adapter, each to his own, sorry Mike.
I put forward the idea of a factory setup of 1080p,2Kscaled,4K, no response, bad idea, I'll shut the .... up.
I think your idea is great, but getting clean high quality 1080p and 4K out of Red at the same time seems to be hardware limitation within the camera ATPT, and not doable at all with Red one. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.
Cheers Mezmo.
 
Mezmo. I think you're right, and it is a bummer...
The announced 1080 4:4:4 HD-SDI was a great advantage to the cam and would make it fit in to tons of existing workflows, including mine - while still giving additional value through the 4k RAW path.

Still.

Everything in life changes etc

Cheers!

Gunleik
 
Hang on, second thoughts, maybe I'm being a tad unreasonable
for a camera at this price, but it was marketed as a feature intended
for this camera from the get go.
Like anything, the devil is in the detail.
I'm tending to lean towards RAW out of the HDSDI ports to make up for
this dumped feature.
This would save bucks on the RAW port thingie and help some of us on our
merry way.
Any in agreement?

Mezmo.
 
I agree very much -;)

But as always:
The announced specs have always been due to change.

I would love to put the Red into existing workflows, and have been planning to do so. But I cannot really say it's a bummer @ HPX 500 pricepoint -;)

Gunleik
 
mezmo said:
Hang on, second thoughts, maybe I'm being a tad unreasonable
for a camera at this price, but it was marketed as a feature intended
for this camera from the get go.
Like anything, the devil is in the detail.
I'm tending to lean towards RAW out of the HDSDI ports to make up for
this dumped feature.
This would save bucks on the RAW port thingie and help some of us on our
merry way.
Any in agreement?

Mezmo.
Click to expand...

To me, you're not being unreasonable in the slightest. It was always marketed as having a 1080p HD-SDI output. I know, specs were subject to change etc. etc. But that's a pretty important spec. For my situation, it would be like announcing that the camera will no longer be able to record in color. Don't like black and white? Well, specs were subject to change.
 
TimPipher said:
To me, you're not being unreasonable in the slightest. It was always marketed as having a 1080p HD-SDI output. I know, specs were subject to change etc. etc. But that's a pretty important spec. For my situation, it would be like announcing that the camera will no longer be able to record in color. Don't like black and white? Well, specs were subject to change.
Click to expand...

Harsh....but true.
 
mezmo said:
Hi Mitch ,
Just to recap.
The problem seems to be as I understand it Red can't output clean
1080p unless the camera is set up to shoot 1080p not 4K RAW.
As the Red guys say 1080p will then fall out of the HDSDI outputs.
Hence the idea of an outboard device like the Mark Pederson's Red box or David
Newman's RAW out by HDSDI is so the camera can still shoot 4k RAW
but 1080p options or RAW outboard options can still come into play.
Mike Curtis seems to want to strap a Macpro to his back, run around and
capture uncompressed via a AJA adapter, each to his own, sorry Mike.
I put forward the idea of a factory setup of 1080p,2Kscaled,4K, no response, bad idea, I'll shut the .... up.
I think your idea is great, but getting clean high quality 1080p and 4K out of Red at the same time seems to be hardware limitation within the camera ATPT, and not doable at all with Red one. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.
Cheers Mezmo.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I'm not stating in any way what RED can or cannot do. I really don't know and they've done a lot already. But I do know some of the difficulties involved from our experiences with other Digital Cinema technologies. I think Stuart's point about 1080p "rolling out" with 1080rgb capture is that it would be very easy to implement it then, but I don't see him saying that it is impossible otherwise.

There are a few different reasons for wanting a 1080p output, which is what I was trying to address one by one. What is likely either impossible or at least highly impractical is to answer all needs to satisfaction.

By the way, the concept of 3840x2160 (double 1920x1080) is hardly new, and I believe it has even been named Super-HD in places. It would be an elegant way to answer Tim's need while still utilizing most of the RED One's sensor.

And I'm glad the Arri mattebox & accessories deal is working out for a number of you. Abel was happy to set it up (Steve is working hard at filling all of the various requests) and it's Abel's little way of helping out the revolution.

Mitch Gross
Technical Director of Rental
Abel Cine Tech
 
1080p again

1080p again

TimPipher said:
To me, you're not being unreasonable in the slightest. It was always marketed as having a 1080p HD-SDI output. I know, specs were subject to change etc. etc. But that's a pretty important spec. For my situation, it would be like announcing that the camera will no longer be able to record in color. Don't like black and white? Well, specs were subject to change.
Click to expand...

Yes, when recording 1080p. And once again, there may also be some other possibilities that can be explored, but it falls out for free when there is 1080p recording enabled... that's with 35 mm DOF, 10 bit log 4:4:4 image quality and variable frame rate recording from 1 - 60 fps .. so coming, we just ask for your patience.
 
Stuart English said:
Yes, when recording 1080p. And once again, there may also be some other possibilities that can be explored, but it falls out for free when there is 1080p recording enabled... that's with 35 mm DOF, 10 bit log 4:4:4 image quality and variable frame rate recording from 1 - 60 fps .. so coming, we just ask for your patience.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info Stuart,noted.
Mezmo
 
Hamlet said:
1080p with 35mm DOF is scaled from 4K; 2K windowed has 16mm DOF.
Click to expand...

The 2K stream in the Codec still has 35mm DOF... so does the 1k stream. Remember they send 1K out the SDI and to the LCD and EVF and they have 35mm DOF. So I'm not sure you can definitively say it's scaled from the 4K until RED verifies it.
 
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