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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HDR Mode...

Jeremy_Sawatzky said:
could someone just give me a quick refresh on what HDR does? both in stills and motion.

srry for bein the giant noob lol
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It stands for "High Dynamic Range."

In roberto's examples, it lets you create unnatural looking images :P

I remember Graeme or someone mentioning before that Red's HDR implementation would not be the fake looking kind of HDR. Probably just a way to add extra detail to your scenes.
 
Jannard said:
There will be an HDR Mode on EPIC and Scarlet. It may not come the 1st month of release but we do have a pretty clever approach (at least we think so). Examples before release of the cameras.

Jim
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what do you mean (at least we think so) ???

stop being coy, this is a fantastic feature set and makes total sense for a RAW image capture system, especially one that has the same quality for still and motion.... oh by the way,AND the most advanced ASIC ... well ever...

Not a fan boy, just a real enthusiast of this unbelievable team and gear.

I trust you love to wake up to your talented team everyday... :) oh and David Mullen comments here almost everyday, sorry David, Im AM a fanboy of your work :) cant help it, when you create breathtaking moving images regardless of what tool you use. Very inspiring to many of us.

We are shooting R-1 almost everyday and cant wait to talk about it. (them)

Alas, now M-X and RX are waiting for us after a long couple months of shooting and im like "what? sigh, there goes our Hawaii vacation plans." Thanks RED!
 
I know Graeme doesn't like HDR that looks like a cartoon. But it would be cool if you could select different levels of HDR processing. I have a few ideas where I want the HDR to look like cgi.

Love hearing this news about the HDR mode to include motion. The Arri Alexa method of using analog gain on three separate paths and recombining may be interesting. Especially if it gets tone-mapping applied. But I have a feeling the guys at Red have figured out an even better approach.
 
Shane, I think those examples do a perfect job of showing what HDR lets you achieve.

It should be obvious that everyone is personally responsible for where they let their grade rest.

To me it seems obvious that HDR for RED means MORE USABLE RAW information.

RED is not going to be looking over your shoulder when you do your color work.

Look at the first example. YOU have to decide where to set it. You can have an HDR RAW file and make it look like the first.

If your Scarlet/Epic brain is limited to a certain bit-rate then you might be a bit more concerned with the way HDR is processed in-camera. But given the noise level on M-X, I suspect that "even" something like RC80 with INSANE low noise levels will have PLENTY of usable info to achieve these "unnatural looking images". :) At least it can't be far off.

And like Curran points out, there are uses for these surreal looks... personally I would FLIP the F' OUT if I could do that in motion. Visuals in a story balance between "real" and emotional motivations.

I can't wait to hear more! CAN'T WAIT!
 
I remember Graeme or someone mentioning before that Red's HDR implementation would not be the fake looking kind of HDR. Probably just a way to add extra detail to your scenes.
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I tend to agree. A little extra latitude would be nice. I'm very curious as to how they pulled it off. Once again, impossible was yesterday.
 
This will go down in history. I'm not even sure Jim knows the ramifications of this.


If you can pull of true HDR Jim you have again, changed cinema forever.

If it's true HDR this achievement is FAR bigger then the RED camera itself.

Congratulations.
 
Given the "no analog gain" philosphy of Red so far in their sensor-A/D chain, I'm not even sure how the multiple frame (using the high framerate the brains are capable of) would even work, or indeed be necessary.

Two successive frames shot at differing ISO's should result in the EXACT SAME exposure lattitude being recorded to the RAW. The only thing that would change would be the metadata associated with the two frames. That is unless it's possible to change the lens iris on the electronic lenses fast enuff between successive frames to alter the physical exposure.

Given the amazingly low noise floor of the M-X, I wonder if the real idea is to store HDR metadata for each frame (ie: ISO=HDR:320/1600) and then process the same frame with the two curves and then do the HDR computations necessary to overlay them without blowing the exposure out (ie: the same thing you do in Phtoshop when you add two exposures in an HDR image).

Perhaps the brains will have the horsepower to do at least a preview quality version of theis for the EVF/LCD monitoring paths in real time, and then during the post/debayer process, it could be done at full quality.

Heck, maybe the ASICs will have the horespower to do it full quality in real time.

If this is the case then, you could even go back and process exsting .r3d's and turn them in to HDR by turning the appropriate knobs in Redcine-X so that the original "straight ISO" metadata is over-ridden with you rnew HDR values.

That would be cool.

-sc
 
The best would be several very short exposures that could somehow be "added" to calculate what one long one would have looked like. Then you have all the steps in between the smallest and the "total". Plus a lot of motion information. I asked if that could be done a while back, but not sure if it came across to anyone.
 
Jannard said:
Both...

Jim
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I must admit that I have no experience with HDR photography, but I know that Photoshop is used to combine the different exposure levels.

What will be the software needed to create this same effect in motion?
 
Steven Caesare said:
Given the "no analog gain" philosphy of Red so far in their sensor-A/D chain, I'm not even sure how the multiple frame (using the high framerate the brains are capable of) would even work, or indeed be necessary.

-sc
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Pretty simple actually: shutter speed.

Let's say you're shooting a gray chart. Middle gray will clip to white in 1/10th of a second. The white will clip at 1/20th of a second.

If you shoot two frames at 1/20th of a second you can now add them together and you have an image where the middle gray clips in the fully exposed image (1/10th) but since you shot it as two 1/20ths you now also have the detail in the overbrights.

HDR isn't an ugly look. The "Ugly" HDR is just a tonemapped HDR. HDR is EXACTLY the same as a normal image, it just has more dynamic rnage. Some film stocks capture a High Dynamic Range.

I'm sure there'll be compromises in whatever approach RED uses and will have applications where it's amazing and some where it's useless otherwise they wouldn't tell you it's HDR, they'd just advertise how much more latitude the sensor has.
 
This is great news! Looking forward to Graeme's tone mapping.

My guess as to their clever approach would be to expose a pattern of photosites a little less (or longer) than others with the green photosites. After all, there are more of them. Essentially it would be bracketing with photosites, not with frames - but all at once. Then all information can be gained with clever debayering.

The other possiblity would be rather than using some of the green photosites, with the MX sensor, perhaps there are some special photosites in a pattern made specifically for this - but still using the idea of debayering the results in for more range.

But both techniques would allow you to capture HDR in both stills and motion without adding any bad artifacts.

This is just speculation - but I think that's how I would approach it :)
 
I think Brian is on to something. I head this mentioned before. With a 5k sensor you could shoot "2.5k HDR" or do something fancier letting you get more if there was a way. Basically, use the "skipping" idea for a worthy cause. Every other bayer group. You would still get a very nice amount of resolution once you blew it up to 4k, since the image would be so incredibly clean. Right?

Gavin Greenwalt said:
HDR is EXACTLY the same as a normal image, it just has more dynamic rnage.
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Yes. That is how I understand it. Though obviously not "exactly" since the "normal" image would be lacking some of the detail. ;)
 
HDR 3D...?!?!?!?

HDR 3D...?!?!?!?

I am trying (very hard, I must state) to imagine how a HDR motion picture will look in 3D... Is it even necessary based on the multidimensional effect of the HDR alone? :willy_nilly:
 
Luis Otero said:
I am trying (very hard, I must state) to imagine how a HDR motion picture will look in 3D... Is it even necessary based on the multidimensional effect of the HDR alone? :willy_nilly:
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Wait until you see it... pretty slick.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Wait until you see it... pretty slick.

Jim
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This comment, coming from you sir, is making me "trying" to get ready for that day with a dose of several Valiums a day...:drool5:
 
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