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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HD SDI output to BM Multibridge Pro

Sidney said:
Im thinking of using a BM as a converter to hook up a 23" or 30" apple monitor for client/ director preview - what would speak against using a this setup?
Click to expand...

conversion from red's HD SDI (via element technica normal size bnc connector) --> DVI works fine here with apple's 23" monitor with "old one" hd link. (i do not have PRO version).


filip
 
chrisreynolds said:
I have every BM Box and Card known in my post house and had no love with any of them out of all 4 Cameras. A unstable signal at all the different rates. I am yet to take a camera down to BM as they are around the corner to work out this issue.

Cheers, Chris
Click to expand...

Yeah, that would be great! I talked to the techSupport at BM and all they said was that there must be a defect on the MB... I was in doubt but it was no problem getting a replacement... so here's the new one and what do you think??? well, same problem as before!
Chris, please tell us about your "date" with BM... any news?
 
this is what the BM-Techsupport finally replied:

> Thankyou for your patience on this matter. I have been talking with
> our Global Support Director about it. The problem you are experiencing
> is a known problem, and we are currently in talks with RED about it.
>
> The problem occurred following a RED camera firmware update, however
> as yet we do not know where the actual problem lies. Whether the
> problem is on our end or theirs, which is what we are currently
> working with RED on finding out.
>
> The problem seems to be specific to 3GB SDI, which is why older 1.5GB
> SDI products work fine.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a date when we might expect anything to
> happen about the matter, as we are still in the early stages of the process.
>
cheers,
phibes
 
Black Magic

Black Magic

The problem occurred following a RED camera firmware update, however as yet we do not know where the actual problem lies.
Click to expand...

Its possible that a camera firmware upgrade could change the expected payload on the HD-SDI output, for example by embedding 4 channel 24-bit audio.
 
Very interesting thread, thanks for posting your experiences. One thing to keep in mind is that for live monitoring, you'll not get 1080P unless RED creates a 1080P RGB mode for recording on the camera. So, remember 720P for live monitoring is your only option. That's why EPIC is going to rock!
 
I'm voting for a non-recordable dual-link hd-sdi (4:4:4) 1080p live output on the RED ONE. That would be awesome for studio setups and my AJA ioHD direct to ProResHQ. In fact - I've used my ioHD in a variety of situations with my RED. Both as being able to transcode into 1080p by playing back footage in-camera and as a stand-alone downconverter. Works great.
 
It's seems that the unstable HD-SDI signal issue with BM cards is affected by the TIME BASE setting on the Red.

I have no problem with the TIME BASE set to 24.00

But got unstable HD-SDI signal with 23.98, 29.97, 59.94
 
Time base

Time base

It's seems that the unstable HD-SDI signal issue with BM cards is affected by the TIME BASE setting on the Red.

I have no problem with the TIME BASE set to 24.00

But got unstable HD-SDI signal with 23.98, 29.97, 59.94
Click to expand...

That is a very strange result. Can you repeat that test to confirm this?

Which camera build are you using, and which version of the BM card?
 
Stuart English said:
That is a very strange result. Can you repeat that test to confirm this?

Which camera build are you using, and which version of the BM card?
Click to expand...

I'm using build 17 v3.4.1 but already tested with the previous beta 17 and with build 16. (same issue)

- BM Decklink HD extreme 2 with 6.8 drivers for Windows and 6.8.1 for OSX.
- Belden 1505f BNC cable(tried different lengths).
 
My guess, it's the BM card. No problems with AJA Kona 3.
 
Let us know how you make out with tech support. Hopefully this gets resolved for you.
 
Ok, here's the reply from BM:

Hello Alexandre,

Thanks for that information. According to many of our customers who have been using RED, 720p out of RED was working just fine until there was a firmware update for that camera. Post update, the same signal would no longer work going to our cards.

If you take any other 720p 59.94 signals from any other source (decks, non-RED cameras, etc.) you should find that the decklink will take the signal in without a problem.

Hence, we have an open point of contact with RED and are currently waiting a reply.

Regards,

Albert Chu
Support Engineer
Blackmagic Design Inc.
Click to expand...


Any feedback from RED team?
 
RED ONE and Black Magic

RED ONE and Black Magic

Whatever the issue is between RED ONE and the latest Black Magic capture cards, it's probably not camera firmware related.

This comment is based on some tests with BM based products that use both the older and newer BM cards, to test this theory.

The results were the same on all firmware versions - the older version BM board locked up fine, the newer one did not.


The results of these tests have been forwarded to BM.

Hopefully there will be additional information available in the near future.
 
Hello all,

Actually we suspect this is an issue with the RED cameras output when connected to a 3Gb SDI device. This is why our older boards, and likely the AJA boards do not exhibit this problem.

Prior to the firmware update mentioned in this thread the RED camera locked fine to our 3Gb boards.

We have been in touch with a RED dealer on this issue and we sent them some boards for RED to test. The issue was the same, the older version of the firmware worked fine with our 3Gb boards, but the newer one doesn't.

BMD suspects that there is something in the signaling of the camera that is out (as all other devices lock fine to our board) and we are willing to look into the issue however we would need a camera (or a chassis, something with the output) to test the output with our board to determine for certain if the signaling is a problem.

Joshua Helling
Director of Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.
 
BM interface

BM interface

Rather than us speculate what the possible issue is, RED and BM can talk off-line.

We'll let you guys know the results when we understand them better.
 
From DvInfo forum:

Potential Issues using Red Camera...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We discovered a potential issue recording the HD-SDI output from the Red Camera. Using our $25K Tektronix WFM-700 waveform monitor, we discovered that the HD-SDI output from the Red (firmware vr 17) is well outside the SMPTE specs in jitter, rise/fall times and overall signal integrity.

We measured the Red HD-SDI jitter (at 100 Khz filter) to be in the 350 pS range. The max SMPTE jitter allowed is 133 pS, the XDR measures around 120 pS. The Red HD-SDI rise and fall times were in the 400 pS range. The max SMPTE rise and fall time is 270 pS, the XDR measures around 190 pS.

The HD-SDI "eye" opening provides an overall evaluation of the signal integrity. Ideally the eye should be wide open and stable. The Red camera HD-SDI eye shows a lot of reflection issues and has been closed down. The XDR eye is wide open and shows almost no reflection problems.

Regardless of these issues, we were able to record and playback video from the Red camera into the Flash XDR. While the HD-SDI input (from the Red) showed many problems, the loop-thru output from the XDR was clean. We tested with a 1-meter high-quality HD-SDI-cable.

So, while successful, I would caution everyone using the Red camera with the XDR/nano (or other HD recorders) to consider adding an HD-SDI reclocker or keeping the HD-SDI cable length to a minimum.

Red does specify that the HD-SDI output is for monitoring purposes only. However, the current HD-SDI output clearly does not meet SMPTE standards and may be incompatible with any HD-SDI device.
__________________
Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
Here's some test result from a BlackMagic engineer :

"The first test I performed was a jitter test using the Techtronics WFM700
SDI analyser. From this I saw that the camera was not within specification
of jitter tolerances documented in SMPTE292-2008. According to this, the
output timing jitter (10Hz -> 148.5kHz) must be below 1UI. And the output
alignment jitter (100kHz -> 148.5kHz) must be below 0.2UI. My measurements
were as follows:

- 720P50 : 10Hz = 0.459UI; 1kHz = 0.381UI; 10kHz = 0.303UI; 100kHz = 0.264UI
- 720P59 : 10Hz = 0.488UI; 1kHz = 0.400UI; 10kHz = 0.352UI; 100kHz = 0.313UI

When I plugged the card in via 100m of solid core BNC coaxial cable I was
able to reproduce the sparkling and video drop out. Unfortunately, with
such high measured jitter on the HD-SDI output of the camera I am
not surprised at this outcome.

The first thing to note is that I was plugging the SDI cables in via a third
party module that converts from
the small connector (SMB) to standard BNC connectors. It would be a better
test if I had access to Red¹s
actual SMB connector directly, as the high SDI jitter measurement could
possibly be caused by the third
party BNC video adapter that was attached to the side of the camera. A
direct SDI connection might show
better SDI jitter performance.
"

Any update from Red team?
 
Thanks Alex,


Well i just bought the HDLink Pro, and it is still not working.

What are you guys doin' at Red and BM???

Why don't you just work it out together nicely?

WTF
Emmanuel
 
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