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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HD-DSI good enough for the web?

Dylan Macleod CSC

Dylan Macleod CSC

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So the fight continues.

Post workflow is yet again an issue for a "straight to the web" series of commercials I am doing.

Production wants to shoot HD.The director has said that minimal depth of field is really important to him. This means a Pro35 adapter. We have night scenes and the stop loss for the adapter means heavy lighting.

I have suggested RED and the people handling post (i.e. editor) have said "anything but RED". Only because of their lack of understanding of workflow options.

I am a cinematographer and once again find myself in the awkward position of trying to tell editors how to handle the R3D files we hand them.

They won't be able to afford the "easy" method of "just deliver a tape" or the transcode costs of providing Pro Res and then conforming later.

What I am wondering...what are the options for using the signal from the HD-SDI outputs? We can't afford to have a deck on set and this might complicate things further.

Being a cinematographer I am not that up on the nuts and bolts of how video assist records "playback" on set. But...if we are not that concerned with "broadcast resolution" is it not possible to use the video assist recording (assuming they could record a fairly high quality signal from the HD-SDI outputs) as the "final footage".

We are recording sound - and with Build 17's ability of "...embedded audio in HD-SDI outputs" they could have their dailies immediately.

I would set a look in camera, and if required they could do a little color correct in FCP (if that is what they are cutting on)?

I am speaking with the editor on Monday and would like to present options.

Thanks in advance...
 
I have used log and transfer for web bound video with great success.

can you make the pro res files for them? As far as resolution goes I think you
would be better off with the prores then from tape.
 
phaz said:
I have used log and transfer for web bound video with great success.

can you make the pro res files for them? As far as resolution goes I think you
would be better off with the prores then from tape.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion.

I am the cinematographer and will "hand off" the files at the end of the day. It isn't realistic for me to do the pro res files for them.

In any case, from what I understand, log and transfer doesn't handle sound?
 
gunleik said:
If you're recording RAW and shoot like a videocam (WB etc) you could batch the files to prores in redrushes...
Click to expand...

Thanks again...but if I suggest "REDRUSHES" to the editor, I will likely get a sigh...

It is simple for those of us in the know, but an insurmountable pain in the ass to editors who just want to start cutting.
 
Try and get another editor. Tapeless workflow is the future no matter how much your editor sighs. It's early days but in my opinion assistant editors who up till now have been responsible for digitizing rushes will be the ones who learn log and transfer/redrushes etc for the numerous data workflows that become standard over the coming years.

Alternatively get a good DIT on set with the right kit doing this as you shoot and charge production the same as 'machine time' at any post house.

Good luck

Jeff Brown
Red 708 'Ruby'
 
Jeff, with all due respect: I don't agree...

We deliver a service, not a revolution... :)


Agree to the DIT part, though, OR (with the right capture card) you could record the HD-SDI out of the cam.

That's a road full of pitfalls, though, as the signal is P and not PsF as most cards/recorders expect.

BUT with a workflow like that you could record directly to the desired "digitized" format (as they use to call transfering tapes around here)....

G
 
Jeff Brown said:
Try and get another editor. Tapeless workflow is the future no matter how much your editor sighs. It's early days but in my opinion assistant editors who up till now have been responsible for digitizing rushes will be the ones who learn log and transfer/redrushes etc for the numerous data workflows that become standard over the coming years.

Alternatively get a good DIT on set with the right kit doing this as you shoot and charge production the same as 'machine time' at any post house.

Good luck

Jeff Brown
Red 708 'Ruby'
Click to expand...

Getting an a new editor...not always an option in the TVC world. They are usually pre-packaged with the job.

I agree Jeff...only a matter of time before that is part of an assistant's responsibilty...but in the mean time...are there options from the HD-SDI out?
 
I never shoot Red unless Post-Production "Blesses" the idea. They have to deal and $ for it. I do try to educate post and provide some test files before we shoot. Many times they see the Red footage and want to shoot Red! and sometimes their system can't handle it.

In your situation, they may be able to just use the proxys and finnish with them if it is just going to the web.

Food for thought,
 
pm me and lets talk I have a solution for you that is cost effective and easy to do onset.
 
You could always use a transfer house like Plaster City Post. They can transfer all your data, color correct and transfer to HD tape just like you would do with a 35mm transfer, then your post is just dealing with a HD master. Minimum is 1 hour of footage and cost is less than $1000 for the hour.
 
there is something special about the HD-SDI output. When it comes to sensitivity I have failed to get the clean pictures that I get when setting an ASA of 1200 or so- severly underexposed, getting a clear image and signal through HD-SDI, but with the R3D having been unable to clean it up to the point that I saw with the HD-SDI.

A special Debayer must happen that I haven't been able to duplicate in Red Alert or Red Cine. I'm hoping as the SDK becomes more understood, someone will offer a way of debayering similar to at least, if not better than the HD-SDI - when it comes to getting detail without noise out of severely underexposed areas.

vlad
 
you are talking about a subject dear to me. i have had the same issue with a regular client that is all set up for dvcprohd, and is a lot more comfortable with that workflow. in tests with earlier builds, i had no problem shooting low motion (talking heads) coming out of the hd-sdi into a 1400 deck, plugging the sound straight to the deck, and it look good to my eye. there is a disconcerting delay when you do it this way, but, somehow, the sound and picture match.
so, feeling confident of my tests, i told the client i could do it, but, i did the update to build 16, and did not re-test. the day of the shoot i got a big surprise. now the hd-sdi output had some kind of 50% translucent frame around the picture, about 10% from the edges. supposedly anything out of that frame is not recorded on the camera, but, even after talking to RED tech support, no one could figure out how to get rid of it. but they did suggest that if we recorded on the drive, we could play it back clean and it would not have that frame. we did a quick test, and it worked, so we shot most of the morning, and, when we broke for lunch, started to transfer the footage. guess what? no sound. they forgot to tell us that the hd-sdi would not have embedded sound. small detail. it is very disconcerting to me working with the RED some times, because things that you know to be truths, absolutes, are not always the case here. why would i even imagine that their hd-sdi would not have sound? isn't that one of the main things about hd-sdi? but with RED, you can't take anything for granted.

so we where forced at that point to finish recording everything onto the drive. luckily we had a laptop and a couple of hard drives there as back up, and we get the client the files and said good luck. the last i heard is that the sound is clipped, but they are finding a solution. they where happy with the pictures, and that goes a long way, so i hope i don't completely loose them. i keep getting burned with RED, but keep pushing forward. hopefully it won't put me completely out of business before it all comes together.

so i am very interested in finding a solution to what you are trying to do. too many folks here insist on trying to change your (or mine) reality, i really want to hear from the ones that have a solution that would fit our reality, not theirs. if build 17 will play back with embedded sound, that might be enough. but i almost prefer a way of getting rid of that stupid frame that came out of nowhere, at least having the option of turning it on or off.
 
Jeff Brown said:
Try and get another editor. Tapeless workflow is the future no matter how much your editor sighs. It's early days but in my opinion assistant editors who up till now have been responsible for digitizing rushes will be the ones who learn log and transfer/redrushes etc for the numerous data workflows that become standard over the coming years.

Alternatively get a good DIT on set with the right kit doing this as you shoot and charge production the same as 'machine time' at any post house.

Good luck

Jeff Brown
Red 708 'Ruby'
Click to expand...

DIT's DO NOT TRANSCODE MEDIA ON SET EVER!!!!!!

Have you ever tried? How long does it take a laptop sitting in the sun to transcode an hour of R3d to 1080 Prores?

Longer than you will be at that location...
 
Yep it's still a problem, even though theres a few little stop gap solutions creeping out there, its still too clunky and time consuming for the average busy working editor or post person to have the time to sort out a workflow that suits their pipeline, its still easier to say NO.

Its a constant battle for me as anytime the schedule is too tight i get the same too hard basket reactions.

frustrating, but it will change.. and when it does we'll all be ahead of the curve (??)

jas


__
 
dmacleod said:
In any case, from what I understand, log and transfer doesn't handle sound?
Click to expand...

yes sound is supported. I have done 5 web pieces this way. just dialog.

but the audio was very clean.
 
I have the same problem with some clients.

I was baby sitting a small agency through a Red shoot. They had their own edit suites, so I offered to do the Pro Res conversions for them so their system could handle the files. What a nightmare. It took a lot longer than I had anticipated and became an issue because I had other job commitments (shooting wise) the days after that shoot. I don't think it should be the cameraman's domain to transcode the footage that he's shot. Just like I wouldn't be expected to digitize DVCPRO or HDCAM footage I had shot for a client or process the film I had shot myself!

It would be nice if the format was a little more universally post friendly for HDTV finishes. No one in the pipe line wants to fork out the extra time/cost for all the transcoding but I guess it's a new workflow that should be accommodated from a budgetary point of view?
 
I've personally DIT'd or otherwise been involved post-wise with approx 50+ shows this year with RED (we have 4 cams in house now, starting with #97 back last october), and timely delivery of the footage in specifically requested formats is an ongoing challenge for every new client. There's going to be no real quick and easy way of getting a real-time output from the RED on set without the following things:

1.) a Deck on set via SDI (Don't recommend)
2.) Scratch system and Deck on set. Workflow = CF > Scratch > Deck (much preferred over going straight from camera to the deck. Be aware sound will still be an issue with this route.)
3.) A very speedy computer with an AJA card and very fast disk array. (Should work, but never tried this. I would anticipate timecode funkyness)

All three solutions require additional equipment on set, making them more expensive.

A DIT won't have time to compress on set unless your shoot tempo is extremely low and they bring a second machine on set to process (again, extra cost). Their priorities absolutely need to be data security of the footage first and visual confirmation of the clips coming in for overall quality, exposure, and fine focus at full res second....all of which they can't do reliably if their machine is chugging it's way through prores files. Also, processing footage on the set is pretty much guaranteeing that your DIT is going to run into OT since he'll be there a for an hour or two after the last shot wraps waiting for transcoding to finish so he can break down and go home.

To put it bluntly, there's no cheap way to get RED footage off a set in any other form than .r3d and proxy the same day it's shot.

Our typical solution to these kinds of requests is to appeal to the producer to use the DIT's company as an intermediate between the shoot itself and the post house. It's important to find a good DIT because like you've already pointed out, it's a lot easier to view these kinds of footage transfers as a completely seperate step by a different entity instead of extending the role of the DP into "DP/Footage transfer guy/tech support".

If the post house is not comfortable using .r3d files or the proxies, the DIT's company charges a transfer fee and delivers footage 24-48 hours (depending on the volume of footage) after the shoot, in the a digital format of the post houses choice (this usually ends up being Prores, or in some cases DNXHD). This method ensures that the strengths of the RED footage is maintained by users skilled in it's nuances until it's burned into a format that the primary post house is comfortable with. Also, it usually adds a lot to the producers piece of mind if the DIT is willing open a dialogue with the post house and hold their hand on their first run through.

We've been able to process RED footage into 1080p ProRes422 from most one camera, one day music video shoots inside of 24 hours. Cost wise we just charge a flat fee unless they're handing us so much footage its going to take 3 or more days to transcode.

If your editors won't use the proxies or transfer on their own, and production isn't willing to wait an extra day and pay for processing by a skilled DIT, then RED most likely isn't the way to go with your shoot.
 
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