Hannover Hands On comparisons of RED F35 & D21

[geoffboyle]

Makes you wonder what else was done incorrectly.
How can we trust these tests with something as simple as outputting DPXes is done wrong. I put alot of faith in Goeff having sound testing methodology but I'm about to throw that trust out the window. What there any documentation on the test methodology was this just a quick hack?

Hacks like this shouldn't be publicized. It does damage to those of us needing real solid information. Arrrggh!

It wasn't the output of the DPX files from Iridas, this was perfect.

I screwed up later.

Totally me trying to save time.

Nobody else's fault, me, me ,me!

 

[geoffboyle]

When I tested the D21 previously against Red, I found it to be noisier and alot slower than Red. Did you rate the cameras differently in the tests?

We rated all the cameras at the manufacturers recommended settings and colour balance.

 

[sergio arguello]

geoff,

your tests seemed odd,but more your dialougue on your cml has always seemed slanted anti-red. Just dont add anymore dialougue about something you say you not biased about .
prefer not to hear or see your particular opinion.Sorry mate you are no longer trusted,imho

 

[sergio arguello]

OK, let the criticism fly!

Of course the point of doing things like this is to learn.

And I use DPX and not any other format because that's the industry standard.

Oh and if anyone wants to donate a Mac and software I'll happily try that and again if anyone wants to pay for a leased line to my home then I'll upload all the original R3D files.

I do have to deal with the realities of life!![/QUOTE]

the point of doing the test is to learn,agreed.the point of posting the results is to post what you've learned! secondly, your response is to ask for the tools to do the tests properly?IMPRESSIVE!!!

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I hope anyone tempted to conduct comparative testing of digital cameras in the future takes careful note of the potential damage it can do to one's reputation and credibility.

Comparative testing of complex imaging systems is filled with so many variables it becomes ridiculously inconclusive very rapidly. There are clearly more empirical variables and constellations of probable variables than readily meets the eye.

Testing in this manner cannot account for them all. Limiting the conditions under which the test is conducted increases the variables in the system, it does not limit them.

The tests always suppose an artificial scenario, the resulting image of which is judged to have characteristics that are objectively desirable. Herein lies the fallacy.

Assuming complete uniformity in lighting and angle of view (which is utterly impossible), lens, color temperature and so on:

Each camera has a proprietary sensor (x).

Each sensor has variables in overall size (q), sensitivity to light (P), arrangement of photosites (a), read/refresh rate (k), and a proprietary firmware language to record the data on it and reveal an image .

Each image has the variables of resolution (r), bit depth (b), gamma (g), all before the image is graded using different software methodologies (m). And so on...

There are of course many more differences, but you get the idea. Each camera manufacturer uses their own solutions and code to render the image that is expected to be judged within the acceptable range of characteristics for the comparative test. These are never taken into account, yet they have the greatest influence on the outcome. This is the principal fallacy of these "shoot-outs" and the main reason that they should not be the basis of any real decision making.

The fact that the results are judged by trained professionals amplifies this error since under no other real world circumstance is the professional given a competing image of a subject to judge, except in a comparative test.

Any of the tested cameras will deliver the desired results in performance in any given scenario, provided the operator (a) understands the system operation and (b) follows the manufacturer's recommended exposure method.

In fact, apart from resolution, to the lay person the footage from these different cameras should intercut seamlessly in the final edited program.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

"Unlucky" Geoff B. didn't make his CML Hannover test "perfect" at all not because of a wrong file processing to DPX only

also he had a "faulty" lens even that was Carl Zeiss Master Prime...

that showed up here a sort of fringing in some of "one stop more open aperture/extreme light situations".

Shot on RED ONE contrast scene with one plus stop

Shot on ARRI D21 contrast scene with one plus stop

 

[Martin Weiss]

prefer not to hear or see your particular opinion

I for one do prefer to learn from the mistakes of a professional (and I am consciously not using quotation marks here). If Geoff with all his experience makes those mistakes, I wonder what basic mistakes I make on a every day level.

If you have nothing to add to this discussion but disrespect, don't push that "Submit Reply" button.

While you must take any information from the Internets with a sizable grain of salt, CML certainly has taught me things I otherwise would not have known.

There will always be opinions, and there will always be mistakes. But I really see no merit in personal attacks or implying that someone makes intentional mistakes.

 

[geoffboyle]

geoff,

your tests seemed odd,but more your dialougue on your cml has always seemed slanted anti-red. Just dont add anymore dialougue about something you say you not biased about .

Not true at all.

I was very anti the initial hype and the mindless fanboy adulation, still am come to that.

However, where the camera works well I say so.

I happily used it for a TV series in Sweden and would readily do so again.

 

[geoffboyle]

"Unlucky" Geoff B. didn't make his CML Hannover test "perfect" at all not because of a wrong file processing to DPX only

also he had a "faulty" lens even that was Carl Zeiss Master Prime...

that showed up here a sort of fringing in some of "one stop more open aperture/extreme light situations".

The DPX processing, or conversion actually as the original processing was fine, has been corrected.

As far as the lenses go, well in most cases we swapped lenses so we always had the same lens on the cameras, sometimes we couldn't do that because of varying daylight conditions and a desire to keep things equal.

In the shots that you are commenting on the same lens was used for all the shots, how much fairer can I get than that!

We tried to minimise variables as much as possible, that's why I decided to render out to DPX log files at 1920 * 1080 from the RED.

I really think that you should try doing a test like this yourself.

 

[geoffboyle]

[
the point of doing the test is to learn,agreed.the point of posting the results is to post what you've learned! secondly, your response is to ask for the tools to do the tests properly?IMPRESSIVE!!!

I've already said that I screwed up when copying files, I used a faulty shortcut.

It's not something I've tried before and obviously won't again.

I didn't ask for tools I was being sarcastic, I can't afford to have every kind of kit and every kind of connection.

I've looked at you work and it looks good.

I just don't know how you get on in life with such an unpleasant attitude.

 

[sander kamp]

Hey Geoff, the dpx files load properly into Photoshop now, thanks for fixing that.

 

[sergio arguello]

geoff,

sorry if you think that my attitude is unpleasant, its not. I suppose certain things get me heated.I apologize, but you must understand that there are alot of people listening to you as a regarded source,and alot liken you to be somewhat of an authority so when i felt like your previous slant towards us fanboys came all the way across and into your tests i was peaved to say the least. I do apologize as its the same mistake to let emotions get in the middle of technology.

all the best to you

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I guess it's possible for people to miss all the movies, all the Television programs, docs, liftstyle programs, music videos, etc and come to this ONE TEST to make up their minds about RED.



RED has pasted the point "Trying to prove itself" in my opinion.

David M already said it... ASC members are ALREADY using the camera. They already know what they like and don't like. They do not need a test to tell them.

Sorry, but I don't understand the uproar. I could back in the day when Crossing the Line was all we had.. But it's a different world now.

I'm glad people are loyal.. But really... The "qualifyng trials" for RED are over. They made it. They are up there with the big boys and gaining ground. Those that diss the camera in a "personal" fashion are no better than those that defend it in the same way.

As a member of the "sometimes silent majority" I'm happy to keep shooting with my RED...

Thank you!!

Jay

 

[jaadgy akanni]

Thanks for saying that, Jay. What you say here has been my sentiment for over a year now. At this point, we can all sing that Beatles song that says "nothing's gonna change my world...nothings gonna change my world"

 

[N_Villers]

enough allready

enough allready

geoff,

your tests seemed odd,but more your dialougue on your cml has always seemed slanted anti-red. Just dont add anymore dialougue about something you say you not biased about .
prefer not to hear or see your particular opinion.Sorry mate you are no longer trusted,imho

This criticism is getting old and leads nowhere. If this is the reception given to those who are trying to be generous by posting tests on this forum no wonder it turns many off from contributing. Geoff acknowledged his error and continued ranting is a waste of time and I'm sure will in future only contribute to the feeling by many expressed to me offline that this forum is full of fanboys and not open to a true dialogue. I had the pleasure of a long conversation with Geoff at IBC and while discussing the various camera systems I certainly did not have any feeling of a slant or bias towards any specific tool. Rather I found him to be quite fair in his appreciation of the relative merits and weaknesses of each system and his technical knowledge about digital systems in general, I feel, far surpasses many if not most people posting here on this forum.

I know of at least one very comprehensive film vs. red test not posted to this forum for the exact reason that a small error (build 20.0.0 material processed with old color science) was made and it was rightfully - it seems to appear - judged that the resulting criticism would outweigh any utility. This is a shame as the red stood up quite well and it is these types of tests that can further our understanding of the system we work with and help those without the resources to do their own tests (30,000 euros were spent on this test) to gain reference material.

How much better could this of been if someone had quietly informed Geoff of any errors and facilitated a fix before any of this bulls**t that is now going on. :beatdeadhorse5:

 

[geoffboyle]

The "qualifyng trials" for RED are over. They made it. They are up there with the big boys and gaining ground. Those that diss the camera in a "personal" fashion are no better than those that defend it in the same way.
Jay

Erm, I thought that I made it very clear that this was not a shoot out, not a comparison.

It was an occasion for a group of DP's to find out what the limits were of the equipment that they were most likely to shoot drama with were.

No hidden agenda.

Just a bunch of guys trying to establish limits, just as we always have done with film.

Oh and this isn't the first time I've done this, I've been doing it and publishing the results for a long time.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Geoff,

Of all the posts, I'm surprised you called out mine when all I was saying is that I could not understand why people were getting so worked up ovver a camera that's already being widely used!

As for you "Making it very clear it was not a shoot out, not a comparison"

Well my friend (Hope I can call you that)

That may have been your INTENTION, but I think 113 "Enthusatic" posts later we can pretty much say it's not being viewed that way! At least not on here.

You could have called it the "Camera Orgy of 2012" and few would have heard you. Those that love RED will defend anything negaitive, and those that hate it....

You get this idea.

I really don't want to add any more to this... I've said enough.

Bottom line: You're good at what you do, no doubts there, and I would guess the people that will REALLY make use of your "Data" will never post, or have an opinion, they are most likely too busy working. I would guess they will look at what you have, file it away, and then check it against their own findings when it's time to shoot something.

The rest is cannon fodder.

Jay

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Geoff, was there a conclusion posted at the end of the article? I can't find it. I very much look forward to reading your assessment of each camera's limitations, hopefully with some tips!

yawn... boot. open browser. go to reduser. no recon updates. wait, ah. a Hanover test, Cool. Read. Gulp. Read More. Gulp Gulp. ahh, there's mike most. and Graeme's chiming in... cool.

uh oh, now someone ticked David Mullen off.

OK, Im not posting here to save my life... I wonder whats for sale today on reduser classifieds?

HAHAHA... :lol:

 

[geoffboyle]

Geoff, was there a conclusion posted at the end of the article? I can't find it. I very much look forward to reading your assessment of each camera's limitations, hopefully with some tips!



HAHAHA... :lol:

I'm not here to make conclusions or judgements.

The idea was to give people access to data that they probably wouldn't normally get access to.

It's a very time consuming and expensive thing to do tests like this.

I just wanted to let people get at the RAW data and then make their own conclusions.

Is one camera better than another in highlight or shadow response, of course!

But that's not what matters, what matters is knowing what the cameras will do in given conditions.

What you then do with that knowledge is what makes a good cinematographer.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

After all (those mostly quarreling about the test) it shows that no any camera test is perfect.

"Nobody's perfect": That main fact remains between cinematographers and many other here and there that always wanted to be...

And the fact that always remains with RED ONE is that even one of the latest test is already OBSOLETE.

"Tomorrow" or in a couple of days RED will launch M-X the next generation of its sensors

that will cover R1 upgrade, upcoming Epic and Scarlet the brand new camera models, etc,...