Hannover Hands On comparisons of RED F35 & D21

[M Most]

Maybe I'm misreading Geoff's test but a 1/2 stop (and that is Colour Temp dependant) would not change the relative positions of the 3 cameras.

Also if he re-renders based on a undocumented tip what happens when some Sony guy turns around and suggests a re-shoot so they can find another 1/2 stop through a custom curve (for example)??

I agree. What Geoff's test basically seems to show, at least to me, is that the F35 seems to have the widest usable dynamic range, especially in terms of highlight retention. I don't know why anyone should really be surprised or insulted by this, as it has been mentioned by many, many shooters as one of the primary attractions of the camera. Geoff is testing here-and-now, existing products under relatively standard conditions, yielding a very fair reading of the relative strengths of each one. When next generation products come along, Geoff and many others will run similar tests and the results might be different. But right now, he's simply showing in a more empirical way something most people in the industry already suspected. This is not a knock on Red or Arri or anyone else, it's simply a statement of the current imaging capabilities of some competitive products. That's all.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

So let me get this clear, you'd all like me to re-render at 250 ISO and 5600K

Is that correct?

Don't the minus a half give you pretty much that in terms of exposure?

And the difference between 5000 and 5600 is pretty small.

nope, not what I expect or want.

but thanks for the response!


And the test!

Gunleik

 

[Filip Vandoorne]

for viewing dpx files on the mac you can use Apple color - just add 0001.dpx at the dpx files from the D21 and F35.
or you can also use http://djv.sourceforge.net/ -- open multiple windows to switch from one file to another for comparing.

 

[geoffboyle]

Also, if you could post JPEGS as well as DPX it would make life easier for a lot of us.

I use jpgs for the small reference files but to use them for the full size images would defeat the whole point of what we did!

I'm trying to give you un-fucked around with images so that you can make informed decisions.

Jpg would ruin that.
]

 

[geoffboyle]

I agree. What Geoff's test basically seems to show, at least to me, is that the F35 seems to have the widest usable dynamic range, especially in terms of highlight retention.

I hope I made it clear on the web page that in terms of highlights there was so little difference between the Arri and the F35 I didn't bother to post both!

I do think that the F35 has the widest latitude although I prefer the look of the Arri. This was a surprise to me.

I guess it's why we do tests!!

The big thing for me is how good a relatively cheap camera is.

Whether the RED or the SI, I feel that the BSC tests particularly really didn't show this.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

When I try to load the dpx files into Photoshop, some work, some don't. When I load the non-working ones into Shake, they come in with all the colors wrong. Ouch.

If you can make the R3D files available to me, I can take a proper look at them and see what is going on.

Thanks,

Graeme

 

[Jannard]

Geoff... no offense but can you send the r3d so we can do a proper grading? Not exactly sure what you did here but red and blue channels have been switched (very weird), can't open DPX file in Photoshop so opened in Shake... and you are actually posting these for comparison?

Jim

 

[Ariana]

When I tested the D21 previously against Red, I found it to be noisier and alot slower than Red. Did you rate the cameras differently in the tests?

 

[Phil Jordan]

It is a shame if people make a decision based on such a shoddy test. I didn't realize that tail lights on cars are now blue. I have to wonder what Geoff's motives are to do such a thing because he does know what he is doing. This is very bad.

 

[Grady Wilson]

Hold the horses here, So after all the shit that CML gives us Redusers every day for being such goofballs, The head honcho can't even make a proper DPX file and do a proper camera test?

You gotta be kidding me. How embarrassing.

 

[Jarred Land]

Play nice kids, stay away from personal attacks. It has already been stated and agreed that these tests were not processed the best they could be, so no need to run Geoff into the ground.

Graeme and Jim have both offered to help Geoff out with processing so lets see how that goes.

 

[Todd M.]

Play nice kids, stay away from personal attacks. It has already been stated and agreed that these tests were not processed the best they could be, so no need to run Geoff into the ground.

Graeme and Jim have both offered to help Geoff out with processing so lets see how that goes.

Can we see the color chart you have in your profile image in high-res? That looks like it was processed correctly.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

When you test with RED1 normally you make a 1 frame recording (you can set up using time-lapse)

and then your R3D file has a small size enough to be downloaded to anybody who want to have a look what is going on there.

In this case with R1 you don't need DPX log file just because you can make your own (only if you've got that 1 sec recorded R3D file),

then choose right WB, then apply specific LOOK/LUT and see what happened.

 

[Grady Wilson]

Play nice kids, stay away from personal attacks.

I do apologize Jarred. I just find it very odd that the first post from Geoff in a year on Reduser is to pawn his new book that tells people how to expose RED correctly, use LUTS and workflow properly when it is very apparent that he (self admittedly through his processing posts) clearly does not have a handle on working with RED footage.

I did not intend to be personal but this does affect me personally as an incorrect test like this that comes from a professional is harmful to me as it is just one more botched piece of written material that I need to counter-explain to producers and directors when I am making a bid.

I will shut up until someone who knows how to use the RED processes the files.

 

[Jeremy Newmark]

It is a shame if people make a decision based on such a shoddy test. I didn't realize that tail lights on cars are now blue. I have to wonder what Geoff's motives are to do such a thing because he does know what he is doing. This is very bad.

Hold the horses here, So after all the shit that CML gives us Redusers every day for being such goofballs, The head honcho can't even make a proper DPX file and do a proper camera test?

You gotta be kidding me. How embarrassing.

Please folks don't let this thread go negative. I think it's clear at this point that Geoff is a fan of the Red. He's used it on numerous jobs. I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation, people are human and they do make mistakes. I think it's great that he's posting here and contributing to Reduser. Please don't go and run him off, when he's obviously trying to contribute in good faith.

 

[Larry Gebhardt]

Please folks don't let this thread go negative. I think it's clear at this point that Geoff is a fan of the Red. He's used it on numerous jobs. I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation, people are human and they do make mistakes. I think it's great that he's posting here and contributing to Reduser. Please don't go and run him off, when he's obviously trying to contribute in good faith.

Totally agree. Thanks.

Larry

 

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I just tried to test the DPX in Fusion and like Jim, i also found that they are messed up. It looks as if this is not a software specific problem. The DPXs are bad.

 

[M Most]

I will shut up until someone who knows how to use the RED processes the files.

Geoff Boyle has not only shot numerous projects on Red - including an entire TV series and at least a good part of a feature (in 3D stereoscopic, no less) - but he has publicly stated that he is a fan of it. Having a processing error on one posted image doesn't change the fact that he certainly knows how to use the camera.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

It's actually on all the RED dpx's that I've tried to download.

Also, just to add to it, the RED dpx's are 8bit rather than the 10bit of the D21 and F35 DPXs giving them a rather unfair advantage in this "test".

Graeme

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I agree that some of those DPX are faulty (Kelvin/Tint WB issue) and could be that is a SpeedGrade error.

R3D file should be processed in REDALERT B21 to (any) Log files and then to use the new "Colour Science" WB feature to get it right but not to use at all SpeedGrade DI or similar apps...

But some of those DPX are (partly) OK and from them I didn't see that R1 is "so bad" in extreme towards the two competitors Sony F35 and Arri D21.

Have a look below and DPX were processed (a bit graded) in DJV 0.8.2:

Sony F35

Arri D21

RED1 Mysterium (old sensor)