had a big argument today

[Cüneyt Kaya]

hi guys, today i had an argument with some guys.
in their opinion someone who buys REDs "cheap" equipment pays more in the end.
me: ok, so tell me why do u think so?
they: no supportcenters, fed ex and custom fee kill you
me: wtf? what about pinewood? u dont need to send it to the US.
they: what about the bomb EVF? can you buy it now and actually get it now?
me: u can buy a used EVF, plenty of them in the market for cheap.
they: waiting two months for SSD cards?
me: ok, here i do t know the reason.

so discussion moved to epic...
they: do you really believe that normal people (they mean non redowners)
will be able to buy an epic with an evf and enough storage this year?
me: yes! ok, they are slow sometimes, but max three to six months behind estimation date (or 1st delivery to mark) its available in masses so there is no backorder.
they: beside hollywood and friends who has an epic today?
me: well, see them as betatesters.
they: no way 3000 epics with enough ssd cards and evf will be delivered by summer. with Arri,if they give a date, you will have it by that date. so while you wait on epic and rent while waiting and waiting with arri you shoot.
me: i have a red for the meantime, not bad imho.

so my question: do you guys also see more and more mournings about red not being "good" because u cant "plan" with their schedules and assecory support?

i dont deny that there are backorders but wtf, we are talking about the epic, worth waiting imho

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I feel your pain, and I feel even more for your counterpart ( cause they will really miss out)

Red have had a terrible history of predicting delivery dates, and it seems to have gotten only worse lately, but they deliver extremely well when they do (and there has been no "if" to this date - they deliver - period!)

To answer your question, YES I also get mourning because products come a "bit" late form Red, and hence other contestors gets an (unfair <-- my opinion) high market share.

I am extremely happy to be able to join (via vimeo and Ketch´s website) with Gibby + wife , Ketch, Joseph, and crew in the arrival of M8, but I can´t help too feel a bit anxious about the delivery schedule for the Epic (originaly slated for spring 09!) I am very anxious to learn if they are on schedule or not. The way it was all announced not too long ago, they would start rolling Epic-X off the assembly line sometime this month (And please not on the 28th.... I would hope the 1st!!!)

Anyway, I have invested heavily in Red and it would take a world to change my mind, but it´s really HARD to plan based on any schedule given by Red.

I know I am waiting for something fundamentally good, and I will keep waiting, just hope it starts shipping soon (and I mean the Epic-X)

 

[jimhare]

As a current Red owner it's all good news:

1. I already have a fantastic camera that exceeded my expectations
2. It hasn't cost me an extra dollar since delivery
3. It will only get better when Epic arrives

So for me everything is rosy. If there are delays with Epic, I can still use my R1. If my SSD doesn't arrive, no problem, I'll use my Red Drive until it does.

I do feel sorry for non-owners waiting for Epic and even more so for Scarlet.

Anyone can say anything they want about Red. I just look at my footage and smile.

 

[Jim McKinney]

It's frustrating because they tell you in advance where they hope to go. And then you get so excited, and then you seem to wait and wait.

But . . .

What would be out there if Red wasn't around? (Answer: a lot fewer cameras, and a much much longer wait.)

 

[George Butterfield]

do you guys also see more and more mournings about red not being "good" because u cant "plan" with their schedules and assecory support?

I tell them, "I will just shoot with my RED until I get an EPIC", that's the "plan".

 

[Frank Weeks]

Many of us were smart enough to buy Red one's early. We'll have our Epics soon. Would you rather shoot (or rent) a 5k Camera with features never before seen on a digital camera and light enough to hand hold or a 2k camera. Look, I still love Arri. Still have a full s16 with lenses gathering dust in our equipment room. It's worked flawlessly for years. Shoots the equivalent of 2k but I'm never going to use it again. The Idea of arguing the Epic vs Alexa may be relevant to some, but for those of us that believed and now await Epic. Well.... I'm just smiling.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

RED takes the bullets until they ship. Every company with supply chain problems receives criticism for lack of preparation or responsiveness. That is just the way it goes.

Shipping RED ONE cameras went a long way towards silencing critics. The continual stream of upgrades helped, too.

Shipping EPICs will have the same effect.

Can't wait to see what shipping RED RAYs will do.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

It's an interesting proposition but i don't see how all their points relate to the initial idea. How will all those things make it more expensive in the end? I think their argument is based on YOU shouldn't rely on release dates for important projects and in that context they are entirely right. But how that relates to somebody who buys Red and how they will loose in the end really doesn't make sense.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

It's an interesting proposition but i don't see how all their points relate to the initial idea. How will all those things make it more expensive in the end? I think their argument is based on YOU shouldn't rely on release dates for important projects and in that context they are entirely right. But how that relates to somebody who buys Red and how they will loose in the end really doesn't make sense.

the waiting time and continous rental fees while waiting and than still waiting for assecoires and renting these even after getting the stuff makes a red product "more" expensive. thats the main argument of non redowners.
they base it on reds "history". maybe this makes it clear. of course is bull shit, they can buy a red today and still get a stage 4 deal. who else offers that?
persons who bought an alexa paid another 10 k for the alexa + module beginning this year to stay up to date. so no comparision to red imho.

i rely of having a fully tricked out red1 for my projects, so for me personnally its not hard to wait.
i paid epic already and wait while enjoying the red1. so a red owners waiting time is not that hard imho.
for stage 3 people its even better. who else will get a 100% credit for a 3 year old camera?

i guess its more like teens shouting that a club sucks, because they think they arent able to pass the doorkeeper....so they take arguments why this club sucks. but there is no doorkeeper at red.
imho red would be the happiest around if they could deliver 10000 epic units today and let everybody in.

 

[paulherrin]

you should read the book of job

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

For perspective:
Almost all Alexa buyers had to wait 1-4 months for delivery.
And all the talk about not doing beta and they're just getting playback, audio, and raw now after 8 months?
And how about announcing OVF Alexa and then killing it and then maybe.
As far as I can tell Arri is not much different than Red.

 

[Dane Brehm]

Correction Hollywood and New Zealand already have Epics.

Their are PLENTY of SSDs to go around. You'll get those (assuming you can pay for them) before you'll get your Epic.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

As far as I can tell Arri is not much different than Red.

Well, IMO they are different as bananas & cucumbers...

 

[Paul S.]

they base it on reds "history". maybe this makes it clear. of course is bull shit, they can buy a red today and still get a stage 4 deal. who else offers that?

I thought for stage 4 newcomers there is no deal or discount. So if you're in this camp you need to make the choice between buying the Red One and seeing its price plummet once the Epics start flowing, or waiting and just hoping production goes to plan. The latter option is probably more sensible now, if we're talking late summer to clear the waiting list.

Am I right in thinking there is not yet a way to put down a deposit and get in line for Stage 4, Red One owner or not?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

stage 3 and 4 didnt had the possibility to put down money yet
i just know, in 10 months all this talk is unnecessary.
enough gear for all, i am sure

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

Arri screwed me more.....
last june;
Arri: well you can have your alexa certainly end august:

me: well ok, then I can shoot that feature I've been asked for

arri: sure, you'll have it

me: any deposit required:

arri: no, nada, just give me a call in the next couple of weeks to see how production goes

me: ok , fine

last week of jun:
me: hello , any update on the camera I could have
arri: hmmm? camera??? do you have a reservation
me: no , you told me you would reserve one and I just had to remember you by this call 3 after 3 weeks to check out..;
arri: well sorry , right now our waiting list is filled till december
me: so what I have to tell to the director I was going to shoot for
arri: short lines: we don't care

september ibc:
same story
january 2011:
again a waiting list filled up till december


and then some tell you arri is different, no it's much worse then RED!!!
they screwed a complete feature, because the director insisted on someone which brought his own equipment. verry cool from ARRI...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think I see a lot of parallells between the Alexa and the original R1 rollout.
And quite a few differences...

RED was always open to me when they considered the camera "beta" and gave us the option to take it or wait until it was "out of beta".

RED has until recently not been the FUD'ing company. That may well be because they didn't have any reason to be.

I spoke with an Arri rep, and just said: RAW...
His reply?
Anyone can do RAW. RAW is simple.
Maybe so...

There seems to be something common about how digital cinema cameras are initially finished:

No playback
No audio
No scaling

I think that's fine.

But there has undoubtly been some rather hurting issues in the RED delivery chain the last year, where media, and monitoring obviously are the ones hurting us "in the fielders" with REDs the most with the durability of batteryplates and battery contacts being the most significant "real" issue in the field.

Of course, we can all get Globalmediapro batteries & chargers + IDX batteryplates
But it is not very satisfying.

monitoring...
The HDMI options kill the SDI monitoring.

Having waited "only 6 months" for media and thus not far enough in the queue to get delivery of media yet, is undoubtedly making those who make the paying decisions nervous, in spite of being able to hack together.

I can well understand the RED scepticism by now - even though I don not share it.

I am just unsure whether Arri is much better..

At least RED is (fortunately mostly) mum about the Alexa quality.
It would have been nice if the same was true the other way around.

Choosing between the two currently available offerings is a matter of what you feel is most important for your specific production, and that's no way near an obvious or ideal choice.

And the Epic will show up when it does.

I have a hunch that Jims current good mood might be a pointer as to when it shows up...

And let's face it, the Epics are out there doing real work with the SSDs and Bomb EVF today.

Only irritating problem is that that is nowhere close to me.

 

[Michael Olsen]

we are talking about the epic, worth waiting imho

I think this is the point of division.

Some people are perfectly happy with their current equipment setup - they are making beautiful pictures and their equipment is working, regardless of brand.

For people who are looking at buying a RED kit for the first time, however, the prospect of having an incomplete kit for some time is a bit onerous. And it is a serious consideration. When people set out to buy something, a lot of times they know what they want.

"I want a new RED camera with a new SSD drive, new SSDs, new batteries, and a new EVF. I don't want a RED camera and an third-party EVF, I don't want to buy an outdated EOL model, and I don't want to be stuck using an LCD screen."
​

So people are either left buying RED and grumbling about delays, buying RED and grumbling about having to buy third-party/used, or looking elsewhere for a complete kit.

This is something that I think RED is acutely aware of. The rollout of the RED Mattebox seems to have been far more in line with expectations than some other earlier products.

Complicating matters, and making life difficult for RED, I believe, are the manufacturers. They have their own deadlines, and they want to believe they will hit them. So when RED calls and checks in, I think that they are sometimes a bit too optimistic...which leads RED to pass on information which is too optimistic, which results in people getting upset at RED for being "late" when all they've done is try to let people know the latest information.

And, as has been noted, availability and manufacturing issues are certainly not unique to RED.

 

[Justin Pentecost]

I would argue that the past may not necessarily be a guide to the future as far as buying equipment from Red is concerned ..

The Red One was an anomaly, The people who put down money first got their camera first as far as I'm aware this is almost unique as far as camera sales are concerned. Previously the form has been that private individuals who want a single unit are welcome to put their name on the waiting list but the unwritten rule is that if a rental company places an order that they go to the front of the queue (Certain high profile individuals will also go to the front of the queue).

By selling the early Red ones to mostly private individuals alienated allot of producers .. they wanted to shoot with the Red but they also wanted the backup of a full service rental house. Because of this a lot of owner operators did very well and i would not expect this to be repeated with the epic. I would expect the early epics to go to rental facilities in LA - London - Munich rather than to private owners, and this time by the time you get your Epic (or Alexa) you will be competing with full service rental companies who offer both the Alexa and the Epic.

So the problem gets worse .. do you want to commit to buying an epic when there be a very limited market for it when you finally get it .. or do you buy an Alexa only to find that people want an optical viewfinder, which may well be on different financial footing altogether ,making it a rental only item ?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

red respects individual owners, they sold 8000 units, maybe 1000 are in the rental companies hand, so they should be interested to give the personal owners time frames to make money out of their gear to buy more red gear.
and the individual owner is more loyal imho. this whole community is build by individuals. i hardly see a rental house's rep post here.

I would argue that the past may not necessarily be a guide to the future as far as buying equipment from Red is concerned ..

The Red One was an anomaly, The people who put down money first got their camera first as far as I'm aware this is almost unique as far as camera sales are concerned. Previously the form has been that private individuals who want a single unit are welcome to put their name on the waiting list but the unwritten rule is that if a rental company places an order that they go to the front of the queue (Certain high profile individuals will also go to the front of the queue).

By selling the early Red ones to mostly private individuals alienated allot of producers .. they wanted to shoot with the Red but they also wanted the backup of a full service rental house. Because of this a lot of owner operators did very well and i would not expect this to be repeated with the epic. I would expect the early epics to go to rental facilities in LA - London - Munich rather than to private owners, and this time by the time you get your Epic (or Alexa) you will be competing with full service rental companies who offer both the Alexa and the Epic.

So the problem gets worse .. do you want to commit to buying an epic when there be a very limited market for it when you finally get it .. or do you buy an Alexa only to find that people want an optical viewfinder, which may well be on different financial footing altogether ,making it a rental only item ?