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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

H.265

perfect for delivery codec of course, but not for mastering. It is so to replace current H.264 \

R
 
RivaiC said:
perfect for delivery codec of course, but not for mastering. It is so to replace current H.264 \

R
Click to expand...

Don't forget that H.264 has lossless modes. Level 5.2 and Hi444PP holds 4K 4:4:4 masters upto 14-bit. H.264 is an incredibly flexible standard, and HEVC (colloquially H.265) will be even more so.
 
No idea how REDRay works, but I wonder if RED will deliver its own compression codec standard which will make H.265 irrelevant before it is ready for prime time.....I wouldn't put it past RED....imagine selling a license for a ubiquitous delivery codec of 4k - 8k products....
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
No idea how REDRay works, but I wonder if RED will deliver its own compression codec standard which will make H.265 irrelevant before it is ready for prime time.....I wouldn't put it past RED....imagine selling a license for a ubiquitous delivery codec of 4k - 8k products....
Click to expand...

I don't know what RED Ray really is, but this is what HEVC is - an open standard for video compression that can be implemented by hundreds of encoders, including open source ones. It will play on every device, from your $30 Raspberry Pi like micro-computers to the largest 8K TVs with no need for additional hardware. It will work over every possible delivery system - Bluray and other optical media, broadcast, internet streaming, internet downloads, or just plain old computer files. It can encode every possible video file from heavily compressed 8-bit 4:2:0 320x240 ~200 Kbps files for use on the cheapest phones to lossless 7680x4320 4:4:4 16-bit 3D masters that could run into 1 GB/s.

In terms of compression, X264 already offers excellent 4K results at ~25 Mbps (~3 MB/s) and HEVC will get that to under 2 MB/s. I have tested 4K X264 files extensively on as low as a $400 AMD A-series laptop and it works perfectly with DXVA supported software.

Did I mention it is $0 for almost every usage? Except if you directly sell H.264 files, which needs licensing from MPEG-LA.

Once again, I don't know what RED Ray is, but I will eat all hats I own in my lifetime if it manages to do all of the above significantly better than H.264 at a total cost of $0. Let alone HEVC. And it still would not be irrelevant.
 
HEVC is very promising. IMO, I think H.265 is going to be DOA.

The promise of REDRAY is to offer visually lossless and mathematically lossless in a very low profile, lower than HEVC. This comes at an expense though -- much increased CPU power requirements due to its layered wavelet structure. Although, that is a problem that will sort itself in a relatively short amount of time as hardware continues to progress. IMO, building a "cutting edge" codec now that plays fine on many current platforms is somewhat counter-productive. Sure, there are logical reasons to do so. On the other hand, targeting the high-end and future hardware performance carries a lot of advantages too -- often a great many more, as I've seen in my experiences building other types of applications in the past -- complex game engines and whatnot.

X264 does provide rather good results within relatively limited bandwidth. However, it's hardly a codec for mastering or even professional or theatrical delivery. REDRAY aims to be both of those things. We don't know much about REDRAY at this point. I am expecting quite a bit from it, but fear that the compression side of it will be very resource-intensive. There's a good bet that we will need dedicated hardware to ensure the best results and realistic performance for the near term -- as in having a "RED RAY Pro" unit that has been mentioned before.

A lot of that is speculation as we don't have the details. Hopefully this will all come out at NAB as it seems RED is really going to ship REDRAY this year. And I think they will have to, otherwise Blu-4K may grab the consumer distribution market. Going to be a tough fight either way.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
HEVC is very promising. IMO, I think H.265 is going to be DOA.

The promise of REDRAY is to offer visually lossless and mathematically lossless in a very low profile, lower than HEVC. This comes at an expense though -- much increased CPU power requirements due to its layered wavelet structure. Although, that is a problem that will sort itself in a relatively short amount of time as hardware continues to progress. IMO, building a "cutting edge" codec now that plays fine on many current platforms is somewhat counter-productive. Sure, there are logical reasons to do so. On the other hand, targeting the high-end and future hardware performance carries a lot of advantages too -- often a great many more, as I've seen in my experiences building other types of applications in the past -- complex game engines and whatnot.

X264 does provide rather good results within relatively limited bandwidth. However, it's hardly a codec for mastering or even professional or theatrical delivery. REDRAY aims to be both of those things. We don't know much about REDRAY at this point. I am expecting quite a bit from it, but fear that the compression side of it will be very resource-intensive. There's a good bet that we will need dedicated hardware to ensure the best results and realistic performance for the near term -- as in having a "RED RAY Pro" unit that has been mentioned before.

A lot of that is speculation as we don't have the details. Hopefully this will all come out at NAB as it seems RED is really going to ship REDRAY this year. And I think they will have to, otherwise Blu-4K may grab the consumer distribution market. Going to be a tough fight either way.
Click to expand...

Do remember that H.264 and HEVC are very broad and infinitely flexible. Yes, certain profiles will allow playback on common hardware but it is also scalable to beyond 'cutting edge'. Basically, a 'best of all worlds' approach. Like I mentioned above, H.264 allows for 14-bit, 4:4:4 with Hi444PP, Level 5.2 gets you upto 4096 x 2304 at upto 56 fps. In addition to L5.2 and Hi4444PP, predictive lossless mode gets you mathematically lossless masters with impressive compression ratios (~3:1). I don't see how it is not a viable professional mastering format, technically. HEVC takes that even further. That said, I am sure RED Ray will be very successful in such areas.

Let's see how RED Ray turns out. I remain extremely skeptical about its chances in the consumer market.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
HEVC is very promising. IMO, I think H.265 is going to be DOA...

A lot of that is speculation as we don't have the details. Hopefully this will all come out at NAB as it seems RED is really going to ship REDRAY this year. And I think they will have to, otherwise Blu-4K may grab the consumer distribution market. Going to be a tough fight either way.
Click to expand...

Red would hopefully score a commercial success if they released
an 8K 120fps Super Hi-Vision compatible Red Ray Pro product this year,
effectively leapfrogging the BBC/NHK standard implementation by 5-8 years.

Demoing the Red Monstro 617 at NAB 2012 on laser projectors would go a long way toward saying,
we are already there now, you CAN have it all right now!

Charge whatever they want, release the 8K+ DSMC honey-badger killer now,
sort out the casualties later!

Red's last public roadmap on the 645 and 617 development seemed to indicate
they are announcing sometime this year, and I stopped doubting a while back...
 
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http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/02/23/NHK-120fps-8k4k-sensor

"Japanese national broadcaster NHK has said it is developing a sensor capable of shooting 8k video at 120fps. It will be able to support the company's Super Hi-Vision standard of 7680x4320 pixels (generically known as UHDTV) which, at 33MP, is 16x higher resolution than current 1080 HD technology. The high-speed chip is being developed with Shizuoka University and was reported at the IEEE Internation Solid-State Circuit Conference currently taking place in San Francisco. (via The Verge)
UHDTV is expected to arrive in homes some time around 2020 (the first screens have been demoed) and a 60fps version will be used to show high-quality footage from the 2012 Olympics on a series of large screens around the UK. "

You have to love progress, I hope Red beats everyone to the punch by releasing
a Monstro 617 and RedRay Pro that meets and exceeds these standards...
 
NHK has been exhibiting ultra high def footage at NAB every year. They can't shoehorn this technology into a "nuclear reactor in a matchbox" package, though, and sell it to the hordes. They can create the technology but haven't been able to create a market.

That is what RED does so well.

Still interesting though.
 
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