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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

GYRO-stabilization for aerial cinematography...

Peter Majtan said:
The "only" good quality gyros that I know of (and are used by most people in our industry) are Kenyon's Labs gyros
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The Cineflex and other high-end stabilization systems do not use Kenyon gyros. Kenyons are used in low-end systems that use inertial stabilization (big gyros stabilize camera with their mass). The Cineflex (we own one and have shot ~500 HDCAM SR tapes worth of footage with it in the last year) uses a five axis servo system with several microprocessors using several sensors (accelerometers and gyros (like laser ring gyros or other types of small gyros)) to track motion and compute control signals for all five axis. Same technolgy that's used in aerospace systems.

Long ago we did try the Aerial Exposures rig which uses Kenyon gyros. It is a joke compared to the Cineflex. Of course the Cineflex is 25X as expensive as the Aerial Exposures unit, but the Cineflex is at least 1000X better.

see http://www.axsys.com/p-scs.php

Sorry for perhaps over reacting to your "only Kenyon" comment, but I am partial to my Cineflex...
 
Mike Devlin said:
The Cineflex and other high-end stabilization systems do not use Kenyon gyros. Kenyons are used in low-end systems that use inertial stabilization (big gyros stabilize camera with their mass). The Cineflex (we own one and have shot ~500 HDCAM SR tapes worth of footage with it in the last year) uses a five axis servo system with several microprocessors using several sensors (accelerometers and gyros (like laser ring gyros or other types of small gyros)) to track motion and compute control signals for all five axis. Same technolgy that's used in aerospace systems.

Long ago we did try the Aerial Exposures rig which uses Kenyon gyros. It is a joke compared to the Cineflex. Of course the Cineflex is 25X as expensive as the Aerial Exposures unit, but the Cineflex is at least 1000X better.

see http://www.axsys.com/p-scs.php

Sorry for perhaps over reacting to your "only Kenyon" comment, but I am partial to my Cineflex...
Click to expand...

and you should be!...It's an Awesome rig.
All other stabilized Heli systems are nothing on the CINEFLEX, I've tried them all.
AND I HATE TAPE!.
Like I said before, If you could get A RED camera stuffed in there, you'd never shoot anything else but CINEFLEX.
 
Mike Devlin said:
The Cineflex and other high-end stabilization systems do not use Kenyon gyros. Kenyons are used in low-end systems that use inertial stabilization (big gyros stabilize camera with their mass). The Cineflex (we own one and have shot ~500 HDCAM SR tapes worth of footage with it in the last year) uses a five axis servo system with several microprocessors using several sensors (accelerometers and gyros (like laser ring gyros or other types of small gyros)) to track motion and compute control signals for all five axis. Same technolgy that's used in aerospace systems.

Long ago we did try the Aerial Exposures rig which uses Kenyon gyros. It is a joke compared to the Cineflex. Of course the Cineflex is 25X as expensive as the Aerial Exposures unit, but the Cineflex is at least 1000X better.

see http://www.axsys.com/p-scs.php

Sorry for perhaps over reacting to your "only Kenyon" comment, but I am partial to my Cineflex...
Click to expand...

I am not saying that Cineflex is bad. It's just Cineflex is like the Bugatti Veyron. Amazing, The Best, but sadly out of reach for everyone, but few blessed with substantial financial resources. Nothing for me...

The gyro type used in these systems is "Piezo-Gyro" and it does require complex electronics to make it work. Not something anyone could do, especially not on a budget...

I am looking for reasonably-priced gyro stabilized system, and since I haven't find one I am developing one myself...

I do disagree thou about the Cineflex being 1000x better. That would imply that the final image is 1000x more stabilized (as that is the main purpose of stabilization system) and "traditional" inertial gyros can stabilize the footage almost to perfection. This could be in fact measured and compared and I would be surprised if the footage was even 10x more stabilized, which would clearly not justify (to me) the 25x higher cost - mind You the AerialExposure's system is already a bit overpriced once You realize (and strip) the cost of the actual gyros (even at retail), but I understand their need to make profit...

So my system (when is finished) will be something like 50x more affordable with (I bet) at least 1/10 the stabilization quality. If You add to this equation final stabilization in post and the fact that we would ever use Red One's footage for 2K delivery, I am sure I could compete with the Cineflex quality...

Once again - I am not putting down Cineflex - I am sure it is amazing system, it is just out of my reach...

Here I applaud RED - for their philosophy of delivering state-of-the-art product at reasonable cost accessible to majority of filmmakers...

PS: I think I would go for KS-8's just to be sure - will let You know the results...
 
The main problem with all non-inertia gyro stabilized systems is their lack of "personal" feedback and response to Your controls. Its like controlling remote-controlled car vs actually driving it. Sure the footage is "glued" to a point of view, but it is hard and little "unnatural" to follow a subject - this can be also seen well in the linked video above. Notice how the cameraman struggled to get the hawk/eagle to frame and keep him in it... Rock solid stabilization is not everything, but I am sure this (small) issue will evolve and eventually disappear...
 
"I am looking for reasonably-priced gyro stabilized system, and since I haven't find one I am developing one myself..."


Peter, I have been developing a shoulder mounted Gyro stabilized rig for the Red (and other small cameras) on and off for over a year. Uses two KS8 gyros in a crossed axis configuration. This allows me to shoot handheld and, with the huge extra resolution that we have with the red (assuming a 2k or HD delivery), finalize the stabilization in post with any of the relatively low cost post stabilization apps (AE, Motion, etc.). I shoot a lot of high energy action, out of heli's and other moving vehicles and by shooting handheld,(if you can stabilize the image through both on-board gyros, and later even more in post), you have the huge added advantage (for me) over the gimbal mounts of actually having your eye up to the finder...this is the most important thing for me. (and having your 'other' eye available to see what is going on around the shot...much more of an organic feel)

And I'm not even considering budget here...it is what I do to deliver the kind of shots that I specialize in.

As soon as my number comes in (Red 2228) I will be jumping head first into this endeavor...if you would like to talk more, please PM me...It would be good to discuss.

Larry
 
lrgebhardt said:
"I am looking for reasonably-priced gyro stabilized system, and since I haven't find one I am developing one myself..."


Peter, I have been developing a shoulder mounted Gyro stabilized rig for the Red (and other small cameras) on and off for over a year. Uses two KS8 gyros in a crossed axis configuration. This allows me to shoot handheld and, with the huge extra resolution that we have with the red (assuming a 2k or HD delivery), finalize the stabilization in post with any of the relatively low cost post stabilization apps (AE, Motion, etc.). I shoot a lot of high energy action, out of heli's and other moving vehicles and by shooting handheld,(if you can stabilize the image through both on-board gyros, and later even more in post), you have the huge added advantage (for me) over the gimbal mounts of actually having your eye up to the finder...this is the most important thing for me. (and having your 'other' eye available to see what is going on around the shot...much more of an organic feel)

And I'm not even considering budget here...it is what I do to deliver the kind of shots that I specialize in.

As soon as my number comes in (Red 2228) I will be jumping head first into this endeavor...if you would like to talk more, please PM me...It would be good to discuss.

Larry
Click to expand...

Now we're talking! I sure will PM You - Thanks Larry...
 
The Aerial Exposures rig may not be the top of the line, but it is a great inexpensive stabilization system. The whole thing fits in one 113 pound travel case and powers off a 12V battery.

Here's a shot of Key Grip Derek Teakle and DP Dylan Macleod (Reduser dmacleod) testing it for our 40 day Red shoot which starts next week.

3817_1209316700.jpg
 
ive always wondered how well those little footballs work. Thanks for the report Crewpix.
 
One thing to think about is that you can't adjust the effect of the gyro. So if you use two ks-8s, thats a lot of inertia. Using more smaller gyro's (3 ks-4s etc) alows you to adjust how much extra stabilization you need by adding/subtracting gyros. These things have tons of uses, and the more you understand how they behave the more useful they are. Plus they are fun to zip tie onto an air rifle.

Peace,

Nick
 
augenmensch aka therock said:
So, as we are here right now ... any estimate about time ?
I wanted to order one, lightyears ago since it was in the store and it looked like it was gone ... at least I was under the impression after I talked to your staff...
Click to expand...

It should be rather soon..
 
Jarred Land said:
ive always wondered how well those little footballs work. Thanks for the report Crewpix.
Click to expand...

We only tested it for a half hour or so, but it really did the job shooting out the back of a pickup truck. We were going over curbs and Toronto's excellent crop of spring potholes and it was surprisingly smooth. It was quite challenging to hold a level horizon, partly because we needed more ballast at the bottom to offset the weight of the Red and the Arri Lightweight Zoom, and partly because it takes a while to get used to operating it.

It is a great find for us because we anticipate shooting from a bunch of regular (non-film) helicopters, SUVs, and giant dump trucks (!). We needed something you could travel with and this fits the bill nicely.

We'll be reporting in from the road whenever we have net access. We're doing some cool things - cable cams, truck mounts, jungle, desert, high-altitude, "low" altitude 1.5 miles underground. I already mentioned that we are shooting Red for a 4K finish as a substitute for Imax on a 100' screen.

We have a nice set of Master Primes, the Arri 15.5-45mm LW zoom and the Red 300. Sim Video has set us up with all their great accessories and a smokin' hot E-V-F, which is amazing.

Stay tuned...
 
One thing I found out is that the smaller units (KS6's specifically...havent used the KS4's), is that your hit the 'tumble' point quicker when following action ...I believe Ken-Lab specs the KS6 at 20 degrees per second vs 30 for the KS8 (and it seems to take a lot more force before tumbling). Doesn't seem like a lot of difference, but when you're doing it...it is a lot...and as soon as the gyros tumble..the shot is gone, or at least there is a big bump in the shot. Just my take.
 
I can't wait to hear more CrewPix! Keep us posted...

Hey Larry - finally I got my answer - I was really wandering for the size of Red One whether KS-6 is not to small and I should opt for the KS-8. You got a good point right there... As Kenyon guys say - there is nothing wrong with overkill when it comes to gyros...

I just have to rob few more banks than I originally planned... :ninja:
 
Yeah, Peter, they ain't cheap. As a side note, I first tried to mix a KS8 with a KS6 on crossed axies...thinking that I would need more stabilization in one axis and could use the smaller gyro on another where I felt that less stabilization would be OK...wrong!...tried it out riding in a pickup bed (good way to check out this stuff...find a bumpy road with lots turns...as CrewPix did), and the KS6 would dump (tumble) way sooner than the KS8...I was all over the place. Lesson learned...use same size gyro on all axes.
 
Tyler Camera Systems has a handheld mount that has 2 gyros an a pogo stick type base that absorbs shock. Here is a photo of Nelson Tyler with the system rigged with a RED ONE. It works pretty well takes a little getting used to and good communication with your pilot.

View attachment 4603
 
briferg said:
Tyler Camera Systems has a handheld mount that has 2 gyros an a pogo stick type base that absorbs shock. Here is a photo of Nelson Tyler with the system rigged with a RED ONE. It works pretty well takes a little getting used to and good communication with your pilot.

View attachment 4603
Click to expand...

Any idea which gyros are inside and what is the app. cost of the system?
 
how are you guys running the drives inside?
what drive cable are you using as the only one i have is about 1 foot long.

Anyone know when the RED SSD will be released?
 
I also use my KS6 to stabilise camera on a tripod for ultra long lens work.




Mike Brennan
 
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