Green screen should I shoot Tungsten or Daylight?

[BigLu]

I am shooting a music video on a full green screen stage.
I have been told in the past that the RED camera likes to see Daylight White balance and is designed for daylight.

Im not sure what that means %100
but its been described to me to always try to correct my lights for daylight instead of tungsten lighting.

So on a green screen should i used daylight bulbs when possible on the KinoFlow lights, and for thats that I cannot change out should i blue gel them?

Is that the best method?

Thanks

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I have done some tests lately. RED may well like daylight better, but it keys like nothing else even under tungsten.

But: Do a test and see if you§re happy

 

[Herring]

If you don't mind some extra glass in front of your lens, you can consider a 80A or B filter. But you lose 2 stops...

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

REDs sensor is 5000 Kelvin. Tungsten is 3200 Kelvin. The red channel will clip considerably earlier and the already noisy blue channel gets even noisier, additionally sensitivity decreases from 320 ASA to approx.250 ASA.

WB the camera on set with filter does make a lot of sense if DR and noise are of concern. For pulling a good key this matters a lot.

Thus, shooting in tungsten with a 80A or lighting the whole set with daylight is reasonable.

I shot a curly haired talent in front of a daylight lit greenbox and was very pleased with the results. Doing the same with tungsten in front of a bluebox would have created a less nice key.

Would one shoot with daylight balanced film in tungsten lit greenbox?

Hans

 

[Bruce Allen]

Agree with everyone above... daylight.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Dominic Jones]

Well, got a shoot Thursday which will (for budgetary reasons) be Tungsten lit, no filtration (not enough stop - budget again), WB in post.

A little nervous about it now, but will post results once I'm able to. I'm also keying the final shots, so it will be interesting to see exactly how it pans out in less than ideal circumstances.

BTW, I haven't got any time to do tests (still putting the camera package together!) which is a bit of a worry - anyone know any particular gotchas I should be aware of (specific to Red ChromaKey shooting under Tungsten light - I know how to light a ChromaKey shot in general!)?

 

[Bruce Allen]

Well, got a shoot Thursday which will (for budgetary reasons) be Tungsten lit, no filtration (not enough stop - budget again), WB in post.

A little nervous about it now, but will post results once I'm able to. I'm also keying the final shots, so it will be interesting to see exactly how it pans out in less than ideal circumstances.

BTW, I haven't got any time to do tests (still putting the camera package together!) which is a bit of a worry - anyone know any particular gotchas I should be aware of (specific to Red ChromaKey shooting under Tungsten light - I know how to light a ChromaKey shot in general!)?

Dominic, to be on the safe side, just assume you're going to crush the blacks and that you don't have any more dynamic range than HDV and you'll be fine.

The biggest gotcha I hit was overestimating the dynamic range due to listening to Reduser too much. The shadows are noisy - keep eveything you're keying in a nice 6-7 stop range and you'll be golden - should key like a dream.

Related to this, I know the Red LCD is supposed to be showing a 709 preview and that there's more dynamic range available in the RAW file, but I wouldn't bank on it. Make it look good in the EVF or LCD and you'll be okay.

Definitely do not rate the camera beyond 320ASA. Be extra careful if you're shooting 2K because you're using 1/4 of the sensor and it is consequently far more noisy.

People may take offense to this post as bashing Red or whatever, but who cares - I'm trying to help.

EDIT:
You should also rethink your budget. HMIs or Kinos aren't THAT expensive. If your rate is $60/hr for doing effects, then why the hell not spend an extra $180 on lights for the day. It could easily save you more than 3 hours' work in post if you're doing tricky stuff.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[John Brawley]

I am shooting a music video on a full green screen stage.
I have been told in the past that the RED camera likes to see Daylight White balance and is designed for daylight.

Im not sure what that means %100
but its been described to me to always try to correct my lights for daylight instead of tungsten lighting.

So on a green screen should i used daylight bulbs when possible on the KinoFlow lights, and for thats that I cannot change out should i blue gel them?

Thanks

Just did some extensive green and blue screen testing both under daylight and tungsten settings. (over 100 setups with all the variables !)

We found we got the best results lighting with supergreen kino tubes on digi green screens, with daylight balanced FG/

Even under and overexposed shots could be pulled on tungsten and regular (not supergreen kino's) but they weren't as nice.

Every little bit helps.

jb

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Definitely do not rate the camera beyond 320ASA. Be extra careful if you're shooting 2K because you're using 1/4 of the sensor and it is consequently far more noisy.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Exaxtely.

RED in 2K windowed is much noisier than in 4K. 2K windowed is not a good mode for keying. But 4K downconverted to 2K or 1080p creates a very rich colour space. IMO as good as 35mm.

Hans

 

[Joel Kaye]

We found we got the best results lighting with supergreen kino tubes on digi green screens, with daylight balanced FG/

Do you have to keep the talent further from the GS with those supergreens? Do they increase spill? I guess I'd be tempted to hit the talent with a daylight kicker.. but it's gotta match what you're keying into.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

To reduce spill it makes sens to light the screen with a flat angle from above or below. The reflecting greenish light will hit the floor or the ceiling but not the subject so much.

Making the screen super-green with extra green lights does not help the key much - a big colour space in the footage (eg. 444 vs 311) does.

Hans

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

tungsten versus daylight.

tungsten versus daylight.

You will get a less noisy image if you light daylight...cause that is what the sensor wants.

I have heard that with green screen it is not such a big deal if you have to light tungsten.

Bluescreen, however can be problematic because it is in the blue channel that the noise first appears. If you are lighting a "daylight" sensor with tungsten i.e. "yellow" light you are essentially lighting the chroma out of the blue which will cause noise.

Not "unusable", but certainly not ideal.

Dylan Malceod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

 

[Joel Kaye]

"yellow" light you are essentially lighting the chroma out of the blue which will cause noise.

Would you be inclined to light even non GS scenes with daylight bulbs and gel practicals in the frame towards daylight when possible? Or is that too much hassle for the benefit?

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Would you be inclined to light even non GS scenes with daylight bulbs and gel practicals in the frame towards daylight when possible? Or is that too much hassle for the benefit?

This is a good question and everyone will have their own approach. Personally...I am going to do some testing of lighting night scenes with all daylight (unless i want a "warm" effect). For me this is relatively easy because I love kino flos and it is simple just to use daylight bulbs instead of tungsten. HMI's tend to be used on night scenes, so adding a little gel for "moonlight" is not a problem.

My feeling is that you will get a much cleaner image.

Of course, this is not always appropriate, so it may be that you light with tungsten when you want that "gritty" look.

I get my camera soon and really can't wait to find out all the possibilities this camera has to offer. The tungsten/daylight thing being one thing to play around with.

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

 

[Frank Weeks]

BigLu

Make sure your back lighting is strong enough and try using amber gels (green screen) over your backlights. It can help to enhance the key. Make sure to test first.

Good luck

Frank

 

[Dominic Jones]

You should also rethink your budget. HMIs or Kinos aren't THAT expensive. If your rate is $60/hr for doing effects, then why the hell not spend an extra $180 on lights for the day. It could easily save you more than 3 hours' work in post if you're doing tricky stuff.

Mate, I'd absolutely love to - no chance. Running right up to budget as is, and the kicker is I've got a pretty extensive tungsten package I can bring for free. Also, still waiting on various kit for the Red package, so having to rent in some short term solutions (lens package as haven't got Nikon mount yet, etc).

Thanks a bunch for all the info - that was pretty much my plan anyway (light as normal for digital and crush down), but it's good to get some verification. Man, I wish I had time to do some tests and/or a bigger budget... Oh well, such is life!

 

[Ivan G]

I remember coming across a thread with these test images. It clearly looks cleaner to use daylight.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Mate, I'd absolutely love to - no chance. Running right up to budget as is, and the kicker is I've got a pretty extensive tungsten package I can bring for free. Also, still waiting on various kit for the Red package, so having to rent in some short term solutions (lens package as haven't got Nikon mount yet, etc).

Thanks a bunch for all the info - that was pretty much my plan anyway (light as normal for digital and crush down), but it's good to get some verification. Man, I wish I had time to do some tests and/or a bigger budget... Oh well, such is life!

Don't worry, I'm sure we'll be reading a delighted follow-up post from you on how well it all went. Good luck!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Dominic Jones]

Let's hope so!! Cheers again mate, will definitely report back once I've had a look at the final images and how they key....

 

[Andreas Höhn]

Lighting Blue/Green Screens

Lighting Blue/Green Screens

you an find a good article on kinoflo page HERE

we have done different green screen shots with green tubes, tungsten and daylight. our red #590 did excellent under all conditions. But it were simple shots under controlled environment.