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Grain Issues on Epic

Nick Pujic

Nick Pujic

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Hi guys...hoping someone could help shed some light on why I'm getting really bad grain and color artifacts.

Are there any tricks to getting rid of grain other than black shading? I shot an interview with the Epic and an FS700 tonight using one softbox and a black BG. I black shaded after the camera was on for a good 30 minutes...twice. The noise indicator was to the max after both shadings. The footage on the FS700 with a Zeiss 2.8 lens looked amazing, also at ISO 800.

The Epic was set up as follows:
-Using a Canon L 2.8 lens, wide open
-ISO 800 - 1250 (noise only got worse and worse as iso went up).
-30fps / 20.97 project timebase
- 1/60 shutter

As soon as I try to brighten the image the noise just gets worse.

I'm wondering two things.
1) Why was my noise meter to the roof after black shading at operating temp with all current settings and
2) Why does the FS700 footage look so much better using the same ISO and the same speed lens?

I know more light is always a way to help, but with the Sony doing wonders without any additional light in the exact same situation, why would the Epic need more? Shouldn't it need less?

I've attached frame exports from both cameras for comparison.
Any insight or advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Nick
 

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Sorry, should have specified. I was shooting at 5k. Full 5k.
 
I agree, to me, the Epic image is much better....Look at the blown highlight with the Sony on her nose....detail isn't as good and trust me, there's a lot more you can do with your Epic's footage. Your white balance is off too (for epic) and the curve applied is too harsh. Post an R3D and we can show you there's nothing to worry about :)
 
Thank you guys VERY much.... I'm new to the Epic still, and mostly shoot with it outdoors when I do. Noise has not been an issue so far.
 
In our own test in house. Our RED MX is so much cleaner than our EPIC under a perfect same condition, same exposure and same lens, both performed blackshading before shoot. Some local DP confirm this as well. Their experience told them EPIC has more noise than RED MX. Some of them still prefer to choose to shoot on RED rather than EPIC.

I hope RED can chime into this and give some insight. Why EPIC has more noise than RED MX ?

Rivai
 
Nick Pujic said:
You bet, it is located here:
http://flymaxfilms.com/ClientFTP/RedUser/noise.r3d
Click to expand...

Awesome, and before I have a play, let me answer your questions:

The noise indicator is hitting the roof because, well, look at your scene! How much of it is completely under-exposed? A lot! So, the "black" area around her is filled with noise because there is no light there. But, when you crush that to a true block, it will be clean(er) 800ISO is never purely clean with no noise...but it's fine. The noise indicator is not warning you about her face, although, I would have thrown a bit more bounce in there to help a little more on the shadow side.

The Sony will always look better straight out of the box compared to the Epic because it has noise reduction already applied, and some sharpening. You could take that extra step with your red footage if you like, but I don't image it will be an issue.

I'll have a look at your R3D now, thanks for sharing it.
 
RivaiC said:
In our own test in house. Our RED MX is so much cleaner than our EPIC under a perfect same condition, same exposure and same lens, both performed blackshading before shoot. Some local DP confirm this as well. Their experience told them EPIC has more noise than RED MX. Some of them still prefer to choose to shoot on RED rather than EPIC.

I hope RED can chime into this and give some insight. Why EPIC has more noise than RED MX ?

Rivai
Click to expand...

This is completely true. RED will never (as far as I can tell) agree to that....but hey. It's good to know.
 
That makes sense Matthew, appreciate the clarification. I'm playing with the R3D too now... it's not as bad as it first seemed. Just me and the Epic learning curve I guess. :S
 
I'm transcoding at the moment so can't look at the file, but a common mistake is people judge the noise in RCX when the viewer quality is less than FULL, otherwise Noise will look exaggerated. Also remember that RED cameras do not do any noise reduction like most other cameras.
 
Last edited:
Bob. Of course we judge noise by 100% magnification and full debayer. Anything lower than that is not acceptable.

R
 
Matthew Scott said:
This is completely true. RED will never (as far as I can tell) agree to that....but hey. It's good to know.
Click to expand...

In many ways, i still love RED MX than EPIC. Fact will remain as a fact since the result appeared to be so. We have done couple of test to confirm this. At first, we refuse to believe it but gave in eventually. We shot a guy with a cigar and lighter with absolutely very very little back light. Shot on two cameras, RED MX and EPIC. RED result is cleaner.

R
 
RivaiC said:
In many ways, i still love RED MX than EPIC. Fact will remain as a fact since the result appeared to be so. We have done couple of test to confirm this. At first, we refuse to believe it but gave in eventually. We shot a guy with a cigar and lighter with absolutely very very little back light. Shot on two cameras, RED MX and EPIC. RED result is cleaner.

R
Click to expand...

One answer that has been given is that because the R1 uses lower bit-rates, more noise is lost as data gets compressed. I don't buy this explanation, at least not entirely, but it would be interesting to do the comparisons at 8:1 or 9:1 to even things a bit. If the Epic only becomes noisy at the lower compression ratios, then you would assume the end result - post noise-reduction - will be much cleaner than the R1 MX.
 
Just uploaded again, tested - should work. Sorry for the trouble.
 
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