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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Graeme ? on Broadcast Deliverables

Ken Corben

Ken Corben

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So below is an excerpt from a US Broadcaster's HD deliverables requirements and includes camera's minimum specifications. Program delivery is required on either HDCAM SR or Panasonic D-5 1080i 59.94 fps.

Assumptions:
Program is shot 24p in 4K RAW Redcode
Redcine creates 1080i 59.94fps "masters" for online conform

Question: Redcine does this and meets or exceeds the broadcaster specs?
(note from diagram their compression/luminance and other thresh holds)
 
Broadcast deliverables

Broadcast deliverables

Just send them an HDCAM or D-5 tape in 1080i and you'll be fine. We meet or exceed the minimum "camera" quality requirements listed here. REDCINE would be in the loop certainly, but creating the 1080i 4:2:2 aspect of this may be best left to the final stage of editing. Boards like the AJA KONA card can do real time 3:2 pulldown insertion into a 24 fps 1080p edit to create a 1080i output.
 
Boards like the AJA KONA card can do real time 3:2 pulldown insertion into a 24 fps 1080p edit to create a 1080i output.
Some broadcasters won't accept this if the edits are a frame off (in the 60i master).

To try to resurrect a dead horse here, 3:2 pulldown insertion in Redcine (with dual timecode burn) would be convenient for some people.
 
This thread is very important...
We have to be sure this is rock solid.

Hey Glenn, where do you work?
 
As Stuart points out, RED is way beyond those specs. Going to those specs will actually reduce the quality of the image you deliver them :-)

Graeme
 
Deliverables specs.

Deliverables specs.

Ultimately they are going to have to adjust their specs, because first of all RED is a single chip camera, not 3 chip and FIT is a type of CCD not CMOS.

In practical terms we exceed all of those specs, but the other guys are right you have to have some method of getting them a tape. However, about now is the time to start peppering these guys, PBS, Discovery, etc. with letters regarding RED and just as important, about coming up with an acceptable digital format - be it some kind of quicktime, Final Cut, AVID DNxHD, or whatever on Hard drives or soon via some form of FTP over the internet. It is ridiculous that they haven't done this already - virtually noone is editing on tape anymore - including them so this only makes sense.


sharkguy said:
So below is an excerpt from a US Broadcaster's HD deliverables requirements and includes camera's minimum specifications. Program delivery is required on either HDCAM SR or Panasonic D-5 1080i 59.94 fps.

Assumptions:
Program is shot 24p in 4K RAW Redcode
Redcine creates 1080i 59.94fps "masters" for online conform

Question: Redcine does this and meets or exceeds the broadcaster specs?
(note from diagram their compression/luminance and other thresh holds)
Click to expand...
 
Well, the do suggest the HDX900, which really doesn't meet their specs as it uses pixel shifted, I think 1280x720 chips.

Graeme
 
specs

specs

Not to mention that a lot of HDV footage is sneaking into all of these networks' material. The thing is these specs are getting meaningless as there are just too many ways to skin the cat these days.


Graeme Nattress said:
Well, the do suggest the HDX900, which really doesn't meet their specs as it uses pixel shifted, I think 1280x720 chips.

Graeme
Click to expand...
 
Yup, just like the old days when you'd dub your DV to Digibeta and they could never tell (in PAL - too easy to tell in NTSC as there's 6 lines missing)

Graeme
 
I think the thinking has to shift... don't compare RED to ANY video camera... compare it to film negative.

Would S16mm or 35mm be acceptable? Of course!

Then it comes to the format it's ultimately delivered on, which is not different than the question you'd ask of a film originated workflow. Any of these venues would accept a D5 or HDCam master...
 
The bigger the company the slower they adopt changes...

The bigger the company the slower they adopt changes...

Thanks for response,

Just wanted to be clear that redcine gives me edit masters that meet the minumum tech specs.

I was certain the RED answer was "YES" but needed to know before I pitch a broadcast executive - specifically since rule 3 paragraph 2 states, "all content to be shot in native delivery format." Let's hope their lawyers understand 4K downrezzing should be exempt:bleh:

Also of importance is the use of "accepted" broadcast quality conversions per rule 3 paragraph 3 - one frame off and they'll kick it back READ NO CHECK for final installment, aka, the producers salary. I think this is more an online post issue in the RED work flow?

It all takes time - first mini-DV was not accepted only 16mm and today S16mm, 16mm and HDV are not accepted at all! (yes there are exceptions to this but clearly defined).
 
sharkguy said:
specifically since rule 3 paragraph 2 states, "all content to be shot in native delivery format." Let's hope their lawyers understand 4K downrezzing should be exempt:bleh:
Click to expand...

Don't worry... that's crazy talk... what if you shoot 35mm film? Trust me, that would be considered "acceptable" and yet they wouldn't be expecting a half-dozen 1000' spools of print on their doorstep.

sharkguy said:
Also of importance is the use of "accepted" broadcast quality conversions per rule 3 paragraph 3 - one frame off and they'll kick it back READ NO CHECK for final installment, aka, the producers salary. I think this is more an online post issue in the RED work flow?
Click to expand...

Again, completely un-related to RED origination. This is a concern for the post house prepping your delivery tape or finishing your on-line.

These rules are to keep total crap off the air. If RED originated footage is isn't acceptable to anyone anywhere for any reason, then we should all quit the business and become lawyers...
 
Actually, 16mm is increasing un-acceptable. Just ask the BBC. They find that the grain interferes with the compression for broadcast, bringing the image quality down to sub-SD levels, and hence defeats the point of it being in HD.

Graeme
 
Delivery formats

Delivery formats

The fun thing about those specific delivery specs is you CAN'T actually shoot in the native video format ... there are NO video camcorders that shoot 10 bit 4:2:2. Thats certainly true of F900's or AJ-HDC27 Varicams which currently supply 99% of this material - both use 8 bit recording formats. And nobody will pay you to shoot D-5 or HDCAM SR in the field, even if you could lug them around.

I agree with Graeme about 16mm - generally not accepted any more because of impact on MPEG 2 compression.

I predict that RED acceptability will be played up by our competitors, but become a non-issue very quickly.
 
And I predict Stuart is right.

Saying RED is unnaceptable for broadcast is like saying Dalsa or Arri or Genesis or Viper or 35mm film is unnaceptable for broadcast.

Graeme
 
You better quickly incorporate Clear scan shutter, otherwise you'll fail the specs....I wonder how the 900R achives 4:2:2?

Regarding th KONA does the 3:2 insertion work on both real 24fps and 23.97fps material?
 
This is a bit off topic here, but I've been asked to film a pilot and get it to the Food network, how do I contact some one at the network and how do I make delivery?
 
Origination format matters, but after having shot Redcode, you can convert to whatever your NLE supports so is no biggie, after that, it is just media and output formats that matter. From a Kona or BMD card, a 24p (or 30p) 4K originated (or 1080p59.94 RGB originated) master, you can deliver to whatever specs are needed by the intended target network. As for the edits shifting from 24p to 60i, that doesn't apply here - that issue comes up when conforming offlines done at 60i to online 24p. Your edits will be spot-on when going 24p to 60i, since you aren't changing anything, just adding a field cadence.

-mike
 
Your edits will be spot-on when going 24p to 60i, since you aren't changing anything, just adding a field cadence.


By the edits being off, I mean that the timecodes can be a field off once you convert from 23.98 Non-drop frame timecode to 29.97 drop-frame timecode. Once you start skipping 29.97 timecodes, the 3:2 pulldown cadence doesn't line up anymore. i.e. if there were no drop-frame, the pulldown cadence would start on a second (and zero frames) and end right on a second (and zero frames).

So some 60i frames will have fields from two different 24p frames. You can't have that, since it won't cut perfectly from program to commercial (or other non-program). And the broadcaster can legally not pay the production for this. The onus is then on the post production facility to make the master properly, otherwise the production company will get tired of their mistakes and take their business elsewhere. So basically, the post facility would just make the master correctly.

There are be different workarounds for this problem. If you are packaging the show in a linear bay anyways (yes, linear), it can deal with the fields being off issue (and linear bays are good at packaging). *Not many facilities have a HD linear bay (let alone a linear bay). Another solution would be to package the show in the online system; you'd presumably need to nest the 23.98NDF program in a 59.97DF timeline. Or if for some reason that isn't supported, you can print to tape as 23.98, capture back from tape as 59.97 (Sony HDCAM and HDCAM SR decks add pulldown on the fly if you have the pulldown board installed), package the show, and make your master from there.

It's a little more convenient to online into a 59.97DF timeline to begin with. In this situation, pulldown in Redcine (or some sort of VTR) would be a convenience. *This is sometimes not feasible (i.e. you have a lot of effects work; cadence detection would get annoying) so you might want to put up with the 23.98NDF --> 59.97DF step.

(This stuff is really confusing, and I could be wrong here.)

2- See this old thread... (around pages 1-3)
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=281&page=3
 
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