Grading in CS4

[Charles_Boileau]

Hi,

I've looked around a little bit and it seems I can't find any answers to my questions.

When you import R3D footage in AE does it stay in RAW form until your export out? IE: If I color grade in color finesse will I be color grading the RAW data?

Also, I see allot of talks about color space. While I understand the reason and the applications for it, why would you want to have your footage in REC709 when you import it into AE? I saw some people work in color space Redspace and gamma curve REC709. Is the any real utility in doing this? Would you start from a fairly contrasty image?

In need of some enlightenment.

Thanks

 

[D Fuller]

When you import R3D footage in AE does it stay in RAW form until your export out? IE: If I color grade in color finesse will I be color grading the RAW data?

No. After Effects converts any sources imported into an uncompressed form. Its color depth is determined by your project settings. It can be 8-bits, 16-bits, or 32 bit float. Since Red records 12 bits, there's more than enough headroom for all of the available color information. If you install the RED plugin for AE, then the interpret footage menu shows an "Other Options" button in the lower left that lets you set the interpretation of the Red footage as you would in Red Alert.

Also, I see allot of talks about color space. While I understand the reason and the applications for it, why would you want to have your footage in REC709 when you import it into AE? saw some people work in color space Redspace and gamma curve REC709. I Is the any real utility in doing this? Would you start from a fairly contrasty image?

REC 709 is the color space for digital TV, so you would want to use REC709 if your final output will be for TV.

Understanding gamma and color space is not simple. It would be useful for you to read Adobe's material on color management for AE in the AE help system. Also, work harder at finding material to study online. There's great stuff here if you look for it, and more great material in wikipedia. It's not simple, but nothing about color grading is.

Finally, I would start from as close a grade as the interpret window will give you without losing any detail in highlights or shadows.

 

[Charles_Boileau]

No. After Effects converts any sources imported into an uncompressed form. Its color depth is determined by your project settings. It can be 8-bits, 16-bits, or 32 bit float. Since Red records 12 bits, there's more than enough headroom for all of the available color information. If you install the RED plugin for AE, then the interpret footage menu shows an "Other Options" button in the lower left that lets you set the interpretation of the Red footage as you would in Red Alert.



REC 709 is the color space for digital TV, so you would want to use REC709 if your final output will be for TV.

Understanding gamma and color space is not simple. It would be useful for you to read Adobe's material on color management for AE in the AE help system. Also, work harder at finding material to study online. There's great stuff here if you look for it, and more great material in wikipedia. It's not simple, but nothing about color grading is.

Finally, I would start from as close a grade as the interpret window will give you without losing any detail in highlights or shadows.

Thanks for the reply. But one thing I don't understand: You would set the color space as REC709 right? That's fine I understand the need to do this. It's like in photography, for web you et it to SRGB etc.. so that most browsers and monitors can understand your colors.

Now for the output lut/gamma space. If I use REC709 the image will be somewhat contrasted, but let's say I don't want t start from that I'd rather have something that looks like a raw image. What do I do then? Redlog? The point of having a raw image (and correct me if I'm wrong) is to have as much latitude as possible. REC709 doesn't seem to offer this.

 

[D Fuller]

The point of having the raw image is to give you the latitude to get the look you want. But just like a film negative has more data than you can see in a print, and a digital still has more information than you can see on a monitor or print, RED can produce more latitude than TV can reproduce. The trick of color grading is to compress the RED dynamic range into the viewing color space in a way that looks like you wanted it to look when you shot it. The purpose of color management is to ensure that when you grade a scene on a 10-bit Dreamcolor monitor, for example, and then play it on a regular (8-bit) 1080p HDTV, they look the same. I f you're working on a good, calibrated HD monitor, and your end product is for HDTV, you can turn color management off and be OK; you're working and delivering in the same color space.

You can work in whatever color space you like in AE, but the the right one would be the one that matches your monitor. (The working color space is the one you specify in the Project Settings.) If your monitor is an HD video screen, then the working color space whould be Rec 709. If you've profiled your monitor, then the working space should be that profile.

You can change the output color space to whatever your output device is in the "Output Module" window in the Render Queue. Just be sure your monitor is profiled, or it's all meaningless. And be sure that you use an output profile that is right for the device the piece is going to be viewed on, or you won't get the results you expect.

Where you get to set the color space for the shot is in the "Interpret Footage" window. With the RED CS4 plugin installed, you'll get a "More Options" button in the lower right of the Interpret Footage window. That opens a Red Alert-like window that lets you adjust the settings on the RED clip. My understanding is that AE renders the R3D file to its internal, uncompressed format, at whatever bit depth you specify in the project settings. It uses the color space and gamma settings in this window to do that. (So if you want a raw-like image here, choose Camera RGB; for more saturation, RedSpace, etc.) Then that internal file is converted to the color space specified in the Color Management tab of the Interpret Footage window.

 

[D Fuller]

Also, here's a great paper on color management in AE. Heavy reading, but there's a lot here.

 

[Mike Harrington]

well it does and it dosn't

it does stay raw until export.....

AE is debayering on the fly...it does not instantly render another uncompressed file...only to memory on a frame by frame basis...
otherwise you would have thousands of gigs of render files as uncompressed debayered 4k is about 950MB a sec

but the math and color grading is done as if it is a uncompressed image...but AE does not make another file for the clip...

there is 2 seperate layers of math going on....one is the debayer, with all its color interpretations ect, the other is the color grading you will do on top of it.....but your grading will not affect the raw interpretation...only the source settings will do that.

 

[Charles_Boileau]

Thanks D Fuller. Best piece of information I've had so far.

 

[Charles_Boileau]

What I don't get is that in that white paper Adobe is telling us to set color management to REC709. Are they omitting the fact that our monitors might be profiled? Why then would they also state that it's important to have a calibrated monitor?

 

[D Fuller]

What I don't get is that in that white paper Adobe is telling us to set color management to REC709. Are they omitting the fact that our monitors might be profiled? Why then would they also state that it's important to have a calibrated monitor?

Because when color management is turned on, AE converts everything to the monitor's profile for display. (That's why it's NOT a good idea to use color management if your monitor is not calibrated and profiled.)

Additionally, if you use an external HD reference monitor, AE does NOT convert the video going to that display. So if your project (working) color space is something other than Rec 709, your image will not match your output.

 

[Charles_Boileau]

Make more and more sense.

 

[Jamie Havill]

Also, here's a great paper on color management in AE. Heavy reading, but there's a lot here.

Fantastic read. Thank you.