Good example of 5D MKIII RAW falling down

[Isaac Marchionna]

I've been putting off posting. But I figured I'd relate something that happened to me recently.

I had bid, and booked, a job here in town, renting out both my Epic package, along with myself to run it for a two day shoot, do editing, and all the post/motion graphics work involved. About 1.5 weeks prior to the shoot the creative team came back and disclosed that they were seriously interested in saving costs with shooting with a pair of MkIIIs. I own a mkII, I've shot many videos on it, and I know the situations where it excels over the Epic. Specifically when you have to travel very light, and where web videos are your final deliverable. For that, hey, it's fantastic. Especially if I'm not expecting to have to do a ton of color correction or take those shots in to an app like After Effects.

Long story short, the client seemed adamant that they were saving money, and would be getting the same thing visually. And for the work, they weren't completely off base in terms of the visuals. Our final deliverable was 1080p on the high side, mobile for the low. But where they were mistaken, and has been pointed out, was the workflow. The turn around was 2-3 days for a locked final edit/deliverable. And I wasn't willing to stake my paycheck on a camera that was still in an alpha software, or even having two cameras NOT kicking out the same resolution despite being the same hardware. In the end I measured the cost of doing the post-work, and knowing that they were now welching on an agreement to rent my camera (which made the lion's share of the profit), I respectfully refused the job.

I think the kneejerk reaction is that ALL producers are going to put you in a position where they want to shoot projects on hacked DSLRs. My feeling is mixed. I think this is more representative not of an industry change, but as an indicator of bad producers thinking they know your job. The industry will weed them out, and when they have a project that failed in production due to bad gear, or overly expensive post-production, they'll learn that costly mistake.

I do however find it odd that EPIC owners are seemingly so negative towards these hacks. At one point the RED ONE was looked down on as vaporware, and a kluge of incomplete features. Now we look at it, the Epic, the Alexa, etc as massively important tools. I don't see these hacked DSLRs being competition for Epics, and if you're lowering your prices to compete with kids with Mk3s than something fundamentally wrong in your business model is at play. As stated I need to upgrade my DSLR this summer, and a MKIII makes sense. I don't see it as a compliment to my Epic, but as a very situationally dependent supplement (crash cam, hood cam, POV rig).

I've been lucky to have worked with producers and creatives that understand that time is money, and that the smooth workflow of the Epic means we can jam on projects using a cinema grade camera, and yet deliver edits within hours or days, not weeks. To me, I think the RAW footage looks quite good for what it is, and putting it in that bucket of use I would gladly use one IF the stability got there, and the workflow wasn't hellacious like it is now. But right now I can't bill a client for a hacked piece of gear. I can't stake the project on that, and like the project I mentioned, I haven't.

 

[David W. Jones]

Why is this even posted in the Epic forum?

And if you are seriously thinking you might loose Epic rentals because of the 5Dmk3, do what I did. Rather than get negative and slam the other camera/user, buy the damn inexpensive camera and keep making money!

Some of you are so into, I'm making art, that you forget that you are in business.

 

[Mike Quill]

Oh boy, get ready for this 5D3 vs Epic thread to be closed.

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

I think we may see people start renting scarlets alot more due to this situation with the hacked 5d's. Its not that much more to rent a scarlet than a 5d (at least in my market) so this could be good for me, but not so much for epic owners. Right now its just a uneasy time to upgrade... as much as I want to upgrade to scarlet dragon, I have the feeling I can not justify the cost. Plus I am delivering all my content now in 4k masters and its looking great so I can't complain too much.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Most certainly the team will fix if there's an issue. They release new builds everyday so if you do use it make sure to test first so you don't have weird glitches. Oversharpening is due to inexperienced RAW users that leave the sharpness setting at default when developing their footage. We have dropped a MKIII underwater in a pool to shoot miniatures last weekend and the footage is outstanding. We haven't experienced the issue you are pointing to. It's a lot easier and cost effective to submerge a MKIII than an EPIC and the footage intercuts well with R3D. Pretty moronic of producers to request 5Dmkiii to shoot big gigs... I think this hack can do marvels in the right hands (cinematographers) but you need to be technically savy and be able to test your stuff. It's not for everybody at this moment. My guess is that it will be though and pretty soon.

Well, you wouldn't underwater - because nothing is tack-sharp after being filtered by the water.

Moronic is harsh - producers are not DPs, and they get caught up in the hype. They forget that most internet hype is created by amateurs with zero training, knowledge or even talent. I've done my own tests, putting the sharpness down to zero, and it made no difference.

It will never be "for everybody". Not everybody thinks line-skipped resolution is OK, nor that skew is OK.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Why is this even posted in the Epic forum?

And if you are seriously thinking you might loose Epic rentals because of the 5Dmk3, do what I did. Rather than get negative and slam the other camera/user, buy the damn inexpensive camera and keep making money!

Some of you are so into, I'm making art, that you forget that you are in business.

How would spending 6K more (with 1000x cards) and renting a camera for $150 a day help me recoup my +-40K Epic package investment - that's like 420 rental days. And for that matter how would shooting on a crappy camera help my career? Also, as a pro, I don't just agree with the client and mindlessly agree with what they say - I'm not their waiter.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I've been putting off posting. But I figured I'd relate something that happened to me recently.

I had bid, and booked, a job here in town, renting out both my Epic package, along with myself to run it for a two day shoot, do editing, and all the post/motion graphics work involved. About 1.5 weeks prior to the shoot the creative team came back and disclosed that they were seriously interested in saving costs with shooting with a pair of MkIIIs. I own a mkII, I've shot many videos on it, and I know the situations where it excels over the Epic. Specifically when you have to travel very light, and where web videos are your final deliverable. For that, hey, it's fantastic. Especially if I'm not expecting to have to do a ton of color correction or take those shots in to an app like After Effects.

Long story short, the client seemed adamant that they were saving money, and would be getting the same thing visually. And for the work, they weren't completely off base in terms of the visuals. Our final deliverable was 1080p on the high side, mobile for the low. But where they were mistaken, and has been pointed out, was the workflow. The turn around was 2-3 days for a locked final edit/deliverable. And I wasn't willing to stake my paycheck on a camera that was still in an alpha software, or even having two cameras NOT kicking out the same resolution despite being the same hardware. In the end I measured the cost of doing the post-work, and knowing that they were now welching on an agreement to rent my camera (which made the lion's share of the profit), I respectfully refused the job.

I think the kneejerk reaction is that ALL producers are going to put you in a position where they want to shoot projects on hacked DSLRs. My feeling is mixed. I think this is more representative not of an industry change, but as an indicator of bad producers thinking they know your job. The industry will weed them out, and when they have a project that failed in production due to bad gear, or overly expensive post-production, they'll learn that costly mistake.

I do however find it odd that EPIC owners are seemingly so negative towards these hacks. At one point the RED ONE was looked down on as vaporware, and a kluge of incomplete features. Now we look at it, the Epic, the Alexa, etc as massively important tools. I don't see these hacked DSLRs being competition for Epics, and if you're lowering your prices to compete with kids with Mk3s than something fundamentally wrong in your business model is at play. As stated I need to upgrade my DSLR this summer, and a MKIII makes sense. I don't see it as a compliment to my Epic, but as a very situationally dependent supplement (crash cam, hood cam, POV rig).

I've been lucky to have worked with producers and creatives that understand that time is money, and that the smooth workflow of the Epic means we can jam on projects using a cinema grade camera, and yet deliver edits within hours or days, not weeks. To me, I think the RAW footage looks quite good for what it is, and putting it in that bucket of use I would gladly use one IF the stability got there, and the workflow wasn't hellacious like it is now. But right now I can't bill a client for a hacked piece of gear. I can't stake the project on that, and like the project I mentioned, I haven't.

I'm not negative toward the hack itself, I'm negative toward misinformation and how it spreads across the Internet and gets to producers ears. I write my posts here for you guys, but also for my clients. Amateurs often don;t think about the finer points, about pitfalls, about risks, and 99.99999% of the people using this hack are amateurs. Some with talent and potential, some none at all. Most have no experience shooting with pro cameras, never held an Epic or Alexa in their hands, but yet state with "confidence" that the hack is as a good as Alexa and Red Epic. of course it's not, but the producer then "hears" that the 5D MK II is as good as Epic.

Threads like these help point out other things, to present a more balanced view.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Lot of hate going on here. There is always a right tool for each job. I own a 5D3 and a Scarlet. I wouldn't take my Scarlet everywhere. It's just not practical. For those one off shots which I want to preserve in RAW and quickly get in and out I would love to use my 5D3 with Magic Lantern. Would I shoot a feature film on it? NO

It's not hate, it's a desire to respectfully try and inform producers. Just saying something "is a cinema camera" doesn't mean anything to them or me. It's a vague statement that smells sleazy. You need facts.

Yes this hack is eating away at rentals. Don't kid yourself.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

And in my case I'll say that this client went back on a signed SOW, so this was more indicative of them being bad clients.

I think what was stated is that these were bad producers, who despite being presented with a fact sheet of WHY the Epic would cost them not a ton more, but yield better results, just fixated on the cost of renting a 150 dollar camera for the day. They'll pay for it in the long term. And I've already been told the footage has been a mess to work with.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I think you're just hating. There's more movement in this one and it looks beautiful: https://vimeo.com/channels/529954/66974538

There is lots of flicker in there - look at 1:20 (the awning white line). The shows the things is still line-skipping. Flicker is not always apparent, but it bites you when it bites you. Here the guy is using very high ISOs which soften the image.

Skin texture on human heads in that video also looks line-skipped, which is very unflattering. Look at how dry and unhealthy everyone's skin looks.

Does it matter? Well, it would to my clients, but they have to be shown.

It's good these differences are there, because honestly otherwise we would never sell working with Epic again, and our 40K investment would now be worth $$$ zero. Almost no one cares about 4K future proofing outside these forums. Maybe they should, but they don't. They just want to shoot 1080p.

I can tell you though, that this hack makes me think Dragon? 10K? No thanks. I'm out of the camera buying business.

 

[Bob Gundu]

It's good these differences are there, because honestly otherwise we would never sell working with Epic again, and our 40K investment would now be worth $$$ zero. Almost no one cares about 4K future proofing outside these forums. Maybe they should, but they don't. They just want to shoot 1080p.

I can tell you though, that this hack makes me think Dragon? 10K? No thanks. I'm out of the camera buying business.

If the client truly doesn't care, really what can you do? Perhaps get a few hacked 5D's and rent them out. If the shit hits the fan during the shoot, tell them they should have went with the RED.

 

[Jon Carr]

I got a shoot at the end of June that wants me to shoot 5D mark III with the ML hack instead of my epic. Luckily there willing to do some camera tests first, so it should be a easy win for epic. But I'm also interested in seeing the results.

 

[James_Mills]

There is lots of flicker in there - look at 1:20 (the awning white line). The shows the things is still line-skipping. Flicker is not always apparent, but it bites you when it bites you. Here the guy is using very high ISOs which soften the image.

Skin texture on human heads in that video also looks line-skipped, which is very unflattering. Look at how dry and unhealthy everyone's skin looks.

Does it matter? Well, it would to my clients, but they have to be shown.

It's good these differences are there, because honestly otherwise we would never sell working with Epic again, and our 40K investment would now be worth $$$ zero. Almost no one cares about 4K future proofing outside these forums. Maybe they should, but they don't. They just want to shoot 1080p.

I can tell you though, that this hack makes me think Dragon? 10K? No thanks. I'm out of the camera buying business.

I can't see any of the flickering at 1:20 that you're writing of. I think Isaac nailed my thoughts on this whole matter perfectly:

I do however find it odd that EPIC owners are seemingly so negative towards these hacks. At one point the RED ONE was looked down on as vaporware, and a kluge of incomplete features. Now we look at it, the Epic, the Alexa, etc as massively important tools. I don't see these hacked DSLRs being competition for Epics, and if you're lowering your prices to compete with kids with Mk3s than something fundamentally wrong in your business model is at play. As stated I need to upgrade my DSLR this summer, and a MKIII makes sense. I don't see it as a compliment to my Epic, but as a very situationally dependent supplement (crash cam, hood cam, POV rig).

I've been lucky to have worked with producers and creatives that understand that time is money, and that the smooth workflow of the Epic means we can jam on projects using a cinema grade camera, and yet deliver edits within hours or days, not weeks. To me, I think the RAW footage looks quite good for what it is, and putting it in that bucket of use I would gladly use one IF the stability got there, and the workflow wasn't hellacious like it is now. But right now I can't bill a client for a hacked piece of gear. I can't stake the project on that, and like the project I mentioned, I haven't.

 

[Shane Kelly]

I think the kneejerk reaction is that ALL producers are going to put you in a position where they want to shoot projects on hacked DSLRs. My feeling is mixed. I think this is more representative not of an industry change, but as an indicator of bad producers thinking they know your job. The industry will weed them out, and when they have a project that failed in production due to bad gear, or overly expensive post-production, they'll learn that costly mistake.

I do however find it odd that EPIC owners are seemingly so negative towards these hacks. At one point the RED ONE was looked down on as vaporware, and a kluge of incomplete features. Now we look at it, the Epic, the Alexa, etc as massively important tools. I don't see these hacked DSLRs being competition for Epics, and if you're lowering your prices to compete with kids with Mk3s than something fundamentally wrong in your business model is at play. As stated I need to upgrade my DSLR this summer, and a MKIII makes sense. I don't see it as a compliment to my Epic, but as a very situationally dependent supplement (crash cam, hood cam, POV rig).

I've been lucky to have worked with producers and creatives that understand that time is money, and that the smooth workflow of the Epic means we can jam on projects using a cinema grade camera, and yet deliver edits within hours or days, not weeks. To me, I think the RAW footage looks quite good for what it is, and putting it in that bucket of use I would gladly use one IF the stability got there, and the workflow wasn't hellacious like it is now. But right now I can't bill a client for a hacked piece of gear. I can't stake the project on that, and like the project I mentioned, I haven't.

well said Issac. There are good producers and bad, the good ones know that time is money and will not use an unproven workflow (remind you of a certain camera in the past?), the bad ones believe the hype and don't think of the consequences.
I find this hack really interesting and am seeing some great images come out of it but I'm not about to use it on a job and I would imagine that none of my producers will at this point. I, as a DP, usually choose my own camera - the right camera for the job but if I am asked to shoot on a dslr, I will. My rate is the same either way. I will argue against it but sometimes it's not my decision and sometimes a dslr is the right tool for the job.

this discussion reminds me of my favorite producer joke.
A producer's kid goes to him and asks for five dollars, he replies "four dollars? what do you need three dollars for?

 

[Mike Garrick]

We are at a point in history with motion cameras of hyper development.

I've seen more camera innovation in the last 4 years than in the previous 20. So business models need to change to reflect the new reality.

It seems the main thrust of some posters on this thread is "yoh there go rental rates on Epics/Scarlets " because of the hack. People the rental business model (unless you're some big rental company ) is about to die if not already dead. Ownership of hardware is no longer the certainty it once was. What is, is ownership of "wetware" ..experience.

The 5D iii is a good camera for pick ups or "low key" shooting. All the hack does is bypass factory imposed limitations with the flipside of increasing instability. Are you going to hang a whole production off that and a DLSR workflow? Can any any business model really afford that....mine can't?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

We are at a point in history with motion cameras of hyper development.

I've seen more camera innovation in the last 4 years than in the previous 20. So business models need to change to reflect the new reality.

It seems the main thrust of some posters on this thread is "yoh there go rental rates on Epics/Scarlets " because of the hack. People the rental business model (unless you're some big rental company ) is about to die if not already dead. Ownership of hardware is no longer the certainty it one was. What is, is ownership of "wetware" ..experience.

The 5D iii is a good camera for pick ups or "low key" shooting. All the hack does is bypass factory imposed limitations with the flipside of increasing instability. Are you going to hang a whole production off that and a DLSR workflow? Can any any business model really afford that....mine can't?

If the rental model goes away then you will have the de-democratization of cinema, because only those rich enough to buy gear will be able to shoot anything. When I graduated University I owned one horrible DSLR that did not do video and a super-cheap zoom lens. Yet I was able to compete with the "big boys" because when we got jobs, we rented the exact same gear they did, so it was all about talent. No one owned anything. You didn't need any cash up front, bank loans, anything, as the prods paid for what you needed, as you went. We only owned the computers we used to write proposals.

Another possible outcome is that people suddenly will no longer be able to justify buying a truly great camera, so people like Red, Arri, etc. will have no incentive to make more cameras like that, or they will go out of business.

Yet another possible outcome is back to old digital cinema model. Only very busy rental houses can afford to buy the very best (as value drops too quickly). So the only way to recoup R&D is to charge $200 000 per camera - which will be very expensive to rent, so everybody else shoots with cheap crap, and only an elite few use proper tools.

None of these outcomes are particularly appealing to me, nor are they helpful to spreading out equal-opportunity for image quality past an entrenched elite.

You guys railed against the Japanese Oligopoly that held back the release of innovation, but what you have now is what they were trying to guard against - a situation where prices drop so quickly that no one can make money, not the owner operators, not the camera makers, nobody, and the whole thing will just collapse or become the exclusive domain of hobbyists tinkering in their free time. I would say the time where investing any money in a camera is a good idea is over. BM and ML killed that. Think of this, because of BM and ML, Red will have 10K less (my upgrade) to re-invest in future technology. I'm sure I'm not alone in no longer wishing to invest money in camera technology. It adds up. How can that be "good for the community"? That full-tiem R&D staff (Red, Arri, Sony, etc.) be slowly replaced by amateurs working for free (Magic Lantern group). How is that even good for the economy at large?

As far as good producers and bad, I have my hard earned saving tied up in gear, and a good producer to me is one who pays to rent said gear at a fair price, whether I am using this gear or someone else is. I can't limit my clientele to technically savvy visionaries - that would be full-on idiotic.

I realize these views are not what the herd thinks on the Internet. Go ahead, hate me for it. The herd has a poor track record. The herd thought housing prices would never crash, that there would never be an Internet bubble, etc. etc. Overall the herd isn't exactly the sharpest blade in the drawer. So really, I could care less about the herd's approval. I do care about the future of production, and not just my own career.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

If the client truly doesn't care, really what can you do? Perhaps get a few hacked 5D's and rent them out. If the shit hits the fan during the shoot, tell them they should have went with the RED.

The client cares about quality just not about 4K finishes, which to most productions in 2013 have no utility whatsoever (so I don't blame them)- why would you future proof a commercial, say, intended to air for less than one year? I wish Jim and co would lay off harping on that tune quite so much - it makes people think it's the only reason to shoot Epic, and really nobody is buying into 4K yet (and maybe won;t for many, many years to come, except maybe in feature film and episodic television, but that's not what a lot of us do here). Its' not the only reason to shoot Epic. Not at all.

But a lot of misinformation spread by people who know basically nothing, have no talent or training of any kind, is saying that at 1080p MKIII with a raw hack looks "just as good" as Epic. That is not true - just not. If it were, i would accept it. I'm talking about look here, practicalities of shooting and reliability are another issue (but also relevant).

MkIII hack has the following shortcomings:

WHat ML can't fix, no matter what they do:
-Almost always loosk oversharpened - doesn't matter what you set as "sharpening". That's because it's line-skipping - in a better way than 5D did, but still. This makes all your actresses look uglier than reality, causes strobing/flicker, makes textures look less solid, etc.
- Has less dynamic range than Epic (2 full stops less)
- Does not curve-to-shite as nicely
- Has much, much worse jello/skew
- Has noise that looks digital - Epic noise looks much more like film grain
- Cannot do overcrank
- Cannot be reframed in post.

ML team MIGHT be able to fix:
- reliability is poor - dropped frames do happen
- Post process is tedious and clunky
- File sizes for 1080p are bigger than Epic 5K at common compression settings (unlikely this can be fixed)

 

[Bob Gundu]

I usually tell a client RED epic footage looks amazing. I rarely have to even sell 4k. They actually do get excited that they could grab high resolution stills from the shoot. I also do shoot with my samurai if they want to walk away with proRes files.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We really don't need more threads discussing the Canon RAW hacks... This is not HackedCanonUser.net...