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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Good example of 5D MKIII RAW falling down

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Robert Ruffo New

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Resolution in MK III Raw video is cheated, it's not a proper downscale, which will make pans of detailed sharp objects flicker, even at 1/48th.

https://vimeo.com/channels/529954/66955398

To me this is a serious problem. There are many others, but this is an easy one to explain.

I just almost lost an Epic rental because of MKIII raw, but I got it back after the producer was shown this, so I thought I would share.

Most RAW MKIII test videos have such poor focus - or no pans or camera movement - that the issue is less obvious, but it's always there in anything moving that is in focus, and once you see it, you can't un-see it.. I don't know about you guys, but I'd like the option of panning in my work, at any speed I like, thank you very much.
 
I definitely get the impression that you can't move the camera much for a number of reasons. The tech is improving but the workability does not seem to be there yet except for pet projects.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
Resolution in MK III Raw video is cheated, it's not a proper downscale, which will make pans of detailed sharp objects flicker, even at 1/48th.

https://vimeo.com/channels/529954/66955398

To me this is a serious problem. There are many others, but this is an easy one to explain.

I just almost lost an Epic rental because of MKIII raw, but I got it back after the producer was shown this, so I thought I would share.

Most RAW MKIII test videos have such poor focus - or no pans or camera movement - that the issue is less obvious, but it's always there in anything moving that is in focus, and once you see it, you can't un-see it.. I don't know about you guys, but I'd like the option of panning in my work, at any speed I like, thank you very much.
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phew thanks great tip!
 
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Brad McGiveron said:
phew thanks great tip!
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I'm happy to help.

I remember back in the day when HVX came out people were saying "Now we don't need film!"

Now someone hacks the 5D and people say "Now we don't need Red or Alexa!"

Both are silly statements, but you need to educate producers. You can't just say vague things like "horse for courses" because they aren't very convincing to an educated person who likes to have mastery over his or her domain.

You can see the issue very clearly a few seconds in, when he pans over the pediment of that stone building.

The MKIII video mode using Canon firmware blurs the image - I think that blur was put there by Canon to try and hide the flicker somehow. It's a different kind of motion artifact than MKII line-skipping. There could be a lot of things going on causing it, most likely that it's still some kind of line skipping giving you the lower resolution video from the full sensor.

I also find that every frame of MkIII raw video I've seen looks like it has been put through heavy-handed digital over-sharpening. Look at people's skin when they are in focus. Their skin looks rough and dry because of all that sharpening- definitely not always what you want (your leading lady will hate you for that, and maybe even get you fired) but this system gives you no choice.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
I'm happy to help.

I remember back in the day when HVX came out people were saying "Now we don't need film!"

Now someone hacks the 5D and people say "Now we don't need Red or Alexa!"

Both are silly statements, but you need to educate producers. You can't just say vague things like "horse for courses" because they aren't very convincing to an educated person who likes to have mastery over his or her domain.

You can see the issue very clearly a few seconds in, when he pans over the pediment of that stone building.

The MKIII video mode using Canon firmware blurs the image - I think that blur was put there by Canon to try and hide the flicker somehow. It's a different kind of motion artifact than MKII line-skipping. There could be a lot of things going on causing it, most likely that it's still some kind of line skipping giving you the lower resolution video from the full sensor.

I also find that every frame of MkIII raw video I've seen looks like it has been put through heavy-handed digital over-sharpening. Look at people's skin when they are in focus. Their skin looks rough and dry because of all that sharpening- definitely not always what you want (your leading lady will hate you for that, and maybe even get you fired) but this system gives you no choice.
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Most certainly the team will fix if there's an issue. They release new builds everyday so if you do use it make sure to test first so you don't have weird glitches. Oversharpening is due to inexperienced RAW users that leave the sharpness setting at default when developing their footage. We have dropped a MKIII underwater in a pool to shoot miniatures last weekend and the footage is outstanding. We haven't experienced the issue you are pointing to. It's a lot easier and cost effective to submerge a MKIII than an EPIC and the footage intercuts well with R3D. Pretty moronic of producers to request 5Dmkiii to shoot big gigs... I think this hack can do marvels in the right hands (cinematographers) but you need to be technically savy and be able to test your stuff. It's not for everybody at this moment. My guess is that it will be though and pretty soon.
 
There is some real nastiness going on in the columns on the right at 1:07-1:14 that can't all be from the Vimeo compression.
 
The one inescapable weakness in the Canon scenario is that there are just so many more pixels in the sensor than in the output. I see people complaining about Red's windowing of the sensor for 3k, 2k etc but it's by far the best way to go. BMD have had the sense to make their cameras 1:1 from sensor to file. If a Red is out of consideration for a project, I'd go for a BMDCC any time against a 5D.
 
For what it is, it is very nice looking. You are comparing a 30 000 USD camera with a Raw hack of a 3900 camera (primarily used for still photography).
I don't understand how this could even be considered for professional use if a project got a budget to rent an Epic, but for what it is, there will be a lot of projects that benifit from this increase of DSLR quality.
Comparing it to the black magic, well, the black magics don't have a FF sensor and some projects benefit from that.

So, for what it is, it's pretty damn good.
 
I have to agree with Christopher, for what this is, it looks pretty great.
Robert, you have to accept that you will lose rentals to this camera. We always have, even before the hack. However, a producer who choses a hacked dslr over an epic is probably not one that you want to work with.
I'd also bet that a lot of "producers" would not even see what you are trying to point out so I would have other arguments ready if I were you.
 
how can a producer even consider to work on an hack that even the hackers say is at an early stage! Gosh, how can you be so irresponsible.

anyway, I've heard the choppiness also depends on the encoding from dng. I've read people had problems with that.
 
James_Mills said:
I think you're just hating. There's more movement in this one and it looks beautiful: https://vimeo.com/channels/529954/66974538
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Yea, I own a MKII and have done a couple of tests that havent come up with this issue..

Will these cameras be preferred over the red for some projects : sure. Will they replace them indefinitely ... nope..

I like the results i'm getting with it , but the workflow is more of a hassle (at this stage ) than that of a bmcc or red raw

Though I've found some ways to get around it with som batch processing apps for the .raw files that has recently become available .

This is a rought test i shot to play with the feature once the updated rec module was released https://vimeo.com/66992831


playback, file deletion, and working with the meters (waveform , vectorscope, histogram, spot metering, zebras) that were traditionally available with the older versions of ML arent completely functional at this stage either (in raw mode, they still work for h.264)

Overall I think It'll make them great A cams for smaller productions and a smaller, more discrete B-cam for larger ones once it comes out in an actual final release (still in pre-alpha stages).
 
I think it's crazy that you guys are worried that a hacked DSLR will somehow threaten the market share/mind share of a real cinema camera. Both systems cater to entirely different markets and tiers of filmmaker.
 
Bob Minervini said:
how can a producer even consider to work on an hack that even the hackers say is at an early stage! Gosh, how can you be so irresponsible.

anyway, I've heard the choppiness also depends on the encoding from dng. I've read people had problems with that.
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They see something online and think, omg people seem to think this is awesome and then they want it because it's also cheap.
There are very few producers who really know things.
 
Saumene Mehrdady said:
I think it's crazy that you guys are worried that a hacked DSLR will somehow threaten the market share/mind share of a real cinema camera. Both systems cater to entirely different markets and tiers of filmmaker.
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you can't underestimate the cheapness of producers can you?
 
Lot of hate going on here. There is always a right tool for each job. I own a 5D3 and a Scarlet. I wouldn't take my Scarlet everywhere. It's just not practical. For those one off shots which I want to preserve in RAW and quickly get in and out I would love to use my 5D3 with Magic Lantern. Would I shoot a feature film on it? NO
 
Samir Patel said:
Lot of hate going on here. There is always a right tool for each job. I own a 5D3 and a Scarlet. I wouldn't take my Scarlet everywhere. It's just not practical. For those one off shots which I want to preserve in RAW and quickly get in and out I would love to use my 5D3 with Magic Lantern. Would I shoot a feature film on it? NO
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That's the most logical way to go about this, but unfortunately it's not the case with the filmmaking community online- everybody thinks in absolutes and roots for cameras like they are sports teams / cults
 
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