Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Good enough...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Graeme Nattress said:
It must measure less. But because of the way the sensor rows are skipped, you should really be using a OLPF geared towards reducing the vertical aliasing more than the horizontal, and have it oriented correctly with the sensor. Even then, OLPFs are not ideal in such a situation as you have what amounts to a very low fill-factor vertically, meaning the OLPF has to be much stronger than if you just had big pixels at 1/3 the resolution vertically, which they don't.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Ahh, I like that term, fill factor. I've been trying to describe to people the issues when shooting with the 7D that they need to be aware of. I am going to use that.

I spent all day yesterday on a shoot with 2 7D cameras. I don't think I can stress enough how much an issue Moire is with people. It's not stopping me from doing projects with these cameras, but EVERY project I have done, we have battled Moire. Be it shirts, jeans, buildings, etc, there is just a lot of fine detail out there. I doubt the talent wants to perform nude, and I've had problems with so many different types of clothing, I cannot even tell them what not to wear. Military clothing has lots of patterns of fabric texture which we can't eliminate. So we overshoot for now till I can get the DPSLR when it is released from smallHD. It won't eliminate the problem, but at least we'd be able to see it during filming and try something else. (I guess people who shoot porn have a lot less issue with Moire :) )

Add to that the cameras kept overheating constantly since we were working outside, even in 24P mode (in 60P they overheat even in air conditioning).

This is why Scarlet can't get here soon enough (S35). It WILL make the projects I am on easier, regardless of the resolution. Time is money and having to add more variables into getting a good shot means you ARE going to miss something. Having the talent waiting will the cameras cooled was meaning we were burning daylight. Of course, with a sensitive camera, we got more daylight anyways :)
 
Rick Burnett said:
...I doubt the talent wants to perform nude, and I've had problems with so many different types of clothing, I cannot even tell them what not to wear.
Click to expand...

Rick, I think you have stumbled upon the perfect application for the 5D/7D cameras... porn! No clothes = no moire!! :lol:
 
Alex D. da Silva said:
Actually, "most cameras" have been good enough to create films, good or not, forgettable or masterpieces.
The impulse, or motivation, for improvement is beyond doubt but to affirm that no camera EVER has been good enough is insane.
Should we ignore the history of film and start only when new Red cameras are available?

Ok, we are getting into a rhetorical discussion here. No point on that.
Click to expand...

Most cameras yes, but most electronic cameras have not been good enough. They may have been ok way back when, but look back at some DVDs of old TV shows and unless they were shot on 35mm film, they just don't stand up very well today at all.

And of course, that's just thinking about their use for TV, not for very large screen immersive experiences like IMAX, or for high quality stills work.

Graeme
 
also to add onto that, in the best they were simply limited to the technology of their time. Even older films are being rescanned at 4k, to come back down to blu ray re releases. I've never seen the films look so good in my life, I didn't think films from the 80's and early 90's could even look so good. But they went back to the source film master, and are re delivering it at a quality where the technology can accommodate it. Film itself has been inherently future proofed in the 4k and below realm, when 4k projection is the standard, film will still resolve that. Now electronically, we are running into systems that electronically lock you into resolutions and quality that there is no getting away from.

50 years from now who's to say 10k won't be the standard? the sky's the limit, and company's such as RED are merely trying as hard as possible to assure the buyer that their material won't look outdated for as long as possible.
 
I don't understand why people are still comparing 5D and Red One... (And I have a 5D and I love it).

You have to know the 5D and how to use it to take pretty good videos. The Advantages and disadvantages of it. And if you really know all of this, you'll don't be discussing about 5D vs RED.

5D is a great still camera with an amazing video mode.
RED is a digital cine camera.

Where is the problem with that? Price gap... Yeah... a Still camera vs a Cine Camera. The same video output... Are you kidding? You know 4K? Dinamic Range? RAW? Compression? Jello effect? FPS? PL?... Actually less than this justifies twice, and twice, and twice for the others pro digital cine cameras.

I prefer my 5D to a lot of expensive and wide professionals cameras. But It's just IMHO, and I know that Red is far better just because I have worked a lot with RED. I still love my 5D and record a lot of videos with it, but I don't come here to say that 5D is actually a digital cine camera, and the future... Because it's not true. Come on man!

Justin Armstrong said:
Why does everyone at Red have to get so defensive when the 5D mk2 is mentioned?
Click to expand...

It could may be true... But i'm not being 'defensive', just boring and tired about the same discussions. I read this forum everyday, but I left this topic for two weeks, when it start to fight about 5D... I read it again now (hoping to find something interesting) and... It continues with the same thing. And it isn't the first time what happen it with a topic.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Most cameras yes, but most electronic cameras have not been good enough. They may have been ok way back when, but look back at some DVDs of old TV shows and unless they were shot on 35mm film, they just don't stand up very well today at all.

And of course, that's just thinking about their use for TV, not for very large screen immersive experiences like IMAX, or for high quality stills work. Graeme
Click to expand...

First of all it is not quite fair to compare 30 and 40 year old degraded analog 1" and 2" taped shows vs. those mastered on more modern d1, d2, d3, d5 formats. And just to keep things honest it isn't quite fair to compare shows(and movies) shot in 4:3 which are never going to look/feel right in the widescreen world of now and the future versus shows that originated on 16:9 digibeta or similar which will look a little soft but still pretty good. And the difference will be even less for those created in 2K/1080p.

I think a more accurate analogy of what the difference will be is the current difference from say HVX200 720p and true(r) high end 1080p - not that apparent to most viewers but visible to most professionals.
 
Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress :
Fact is no camera, ever, is good enough and all we can do is keep raising the bar.

Graeme

Alex D. da Silva said:
Actually, "most cameras" have been good enough to create films, good or not, forgettable or masterpieces.
The impulse, or motivation, for improvement is beyond doubt but to affirm that no camera EVER has been good enough is insane.
Should we ignore the history of film and start only when new Red cameras are available?

Ok, we are getting into a rhetorical discussion here. No point on that.
Click to expand...

Alex,

Graeme is talking from a technical view point, if scientists, researchers, inventors, programmers, etc. ever thought what we had was good enough, we would still be riding horses and carriages.

On the other hand if artists never thought what they had available was good enough, we wouldn't have such works of art as have ben made by artists such as Van Gogh, Picasso, Bruegel, Vittorio Storaro, Scorsese, Peter Weir, Tarkovsky, Coppola (father and daughter), Terry Gilliam, just to name a few.

So I cheer to those that aren't satisfied with good enough, and I cheer to those that say good enough !!!

Cheers,
Damien
 
Luis Melgar said:
I don't understand why people are still comparing 5D and Red One... (And I have a 5D and I love it).

You have to know the 5D and how to use it to take pretty good videos. The Advantages and disadvantages of it. And if you really know all of this, you'll don't be discussing about 5D vs RED.

5D is a great still camera with an amazing video mode.
RED is a digital cine camera.

Where is the problem with that? Price gap... Yeah... a Still camera vs a Cine Camera. The same video output... Are you kidding? You know 4K? Dinamic Range? RAW? Compression? Jello effect? FPS? PL?... Actually less than this justifies twice, and twice, and twice for the others pro digital cine cameras.

I prefer my 5D to a lot of expensive and wide professionals cameras. But It's just IMHO, and I know that Red is far better just because I have worked a lot with RED. I still love my 5D and record a lot of videos with it, but I don't come here to say that 5D is actually a digital cine camera, and the future... Because it's not true. Come on man!



It could may be true... But i'm not being 'defensive', just boring and tired about the same discussions. I read this forum everyday, but I left this topic for two weeks, when it start to fight about 5D... I read it again now (hoping to find something interesting) and... It continues with the same thing. And it isn't the first time what happen it with a topic.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. What I'm trying to figure out is why there is such a need felt to "kick the 5D in the testicles" when ever the camera is mentioned.
I own a 5D mark 2. It IS a great camera. Opinion? Yes. So is the opinion that it's not good enough. Do I wish it shot 4k raw? Sure, why not? But will I gather the torches and pitchforks with other Red users because it doesnt preform as well as their cinema camera that costs THOUSANDS more and is realisticly "out of the 5d's league" all together?
The one thing i've notice in my time here is that it's not 5D users coming out and bragging about their camera and starting arguments. Its Red One users that feel the need to bring it up around every corner.

"Why didn't my car start this morning? Must be the Damn 5D's fault!

"my wife left me"...blame the canon!

"they're using a 5d for TV and purposes other than porn?!!" ... (Reduser's head explodes)

I'm sure there are certain people that would rather to spend their billions rewriting text books to blame the dinosaurs extintion on Canon.

Is this a bit of an exaggeration? Maybe. It hardly seems so far fetched anymore.
Its quite apparent that the attitude is that any film not shot on Red products doesnt exist, and anyone using another camera isnt a real film maker. It seems kind of like the big kid on the playground that gets beaten by his alcoholic father, so it makes him feel all better inside when he pushes around people smaller than him.
I think this is a pretty juvenile attitude coming from such a "respected" company claiming to be the best and any other product isnt good enough.

Is the Red one better than the 5D Mark 2? In many cases yes it is. wow. Done. you can blow numbers out your ass until everyone is red in the face but that changes nothing.

This Is why i shoot with a 5D. My camera is real and i can hold it in my hands and it cost me $2,400. I make money here an there on prints and stock footage. I'm a student working my ass off paying for college, food/survival, and trying to get into the film "industry" at the same time.
But apparently this makes me not good enough for Red. I'm sure as hell not an ideal customer in Red's eyes for a Red One, or probably not even a Scarlet. This is why Im not shooting red right now. I sure as hell dont want to get a new camera and become a pompous-jackass that considers any one not in the industry or lower in the industry to be a bottom feeder.
FYI really not the best way to reel in potential customers. :tongue_smilie: The sad part is how the "pride" and QUOTE success QUOTE got in the way, and went to peoples heads.

Listen to me or not. Do what you want.
If there is anything you get out of this I hope that this is it.
It kind of ruined the whole ride with Red being pioneers and come so far since being the underdog themselves, who are now ironically so hostile towards "the little guys".


Can we go on with our short lives and never have this argument again?

:banghead:
 
Last edited:
So why are you here then, you just admitted your not a reduser nor do you seem to want to be one, so well... what are you doing here?
 
Hey Justin, get over it. Just Chill.
 
Justin Armstrong said:
Can we go on with our short lives and never have this argument again?
Click to expand...

How about not making up "arguments" and "hostility" out of thin air in the first place ?
 
I think the whole question is kinda rhetorical. But it gave us something to talk about while waiting for the Scarlet announcement! Clever guy, that Jim.

What should we argue about next? I'm totally waiting for the mid-may update with baited breath. Really, I am! I just popped a breath mint so I'd be more kissable when I go out to the bars while I wait for the update!
 
Justin I think your post and reaction to a statement of fact proves why the 5d is not welcomed into conversations these days on this forum. There is nothing wrong with the 5d for what it was made for stills, and it's video features are very good for the price point. The thing is it does have issues which make it harder to deal with, and the reality of it is the resolution is much lower than the stated 1080 but so are almost all digital video camera's made in recent times. Again I do not see anything that was said as knocking rather more of a stating of the facts, and reactions such as yours (on both sides) are the cause of all the pointless arguments you talk about.

You are a student well then a 5d is great for you, go out and make the best projects you can, what other people say about it should not matter to you. As long as you are happy with the results you get, who cares what others say or think. So what if it isn't full 1080, it's still good enough for you that's all that matters. heck I'm still happy with my 1/3" hd100u and it's still got the split screen problem, and I got a k-x mostly for stills but the video isn't horrible (it's close but if you know what you are doing...), it's not like I'm going to knock someone for shooting shorts with it.

to each their own, have a good one and keep on filming.
 
Justin Armstrong said:
This Is why i shoot with a 5D. My camera is real and i can hold it in my hands and it cost me $2,400. I make money here an there on prints and stock footage. I'm a student working my ass off paying for college, food/survival, and trying to get into the film "industry" at the same time.
But apparently this makes me not good enough for Red.
Click to expand...

Justin, this past year, more and more of my clients have been asking for the 5D. I am very pleased with the money it has made me and the level of creativity it has offered to the productions. I think the thing people get defensive around here about is when people make the case that the 5d is a comparable camera. Sure the Scarlet/Epic are not here yet but the whole idea of RED and why you see such zealous remarks/defenses for the camera system is that RED is actually trying to make a camera with little to no compromises for you and me. That's a huge commitment from a company. And it's the reason why so many people have thrown their support behind RED and come to their defense savagely. I'm a fan of the 5D but I understand it's compromises,...and there are quite a few!

-Dane
 
Dane Henry said:
Justin, this past year, more and more of my clients have been asking for the 5D. I am very pleased with the money it has made me and the level of creativity it has offered to the productions. I think the thing people get defensive around here about is when people make the case that the 5d is a comparable camera. Sure the Scarlet/Epic are not here yet but the whole idea of RED and why you see such zealous remarks/defenses for the camera system is that RED is actually trying to make a camera with little to no compromises for you and me. That's a huge commitment from a company. And it's the reason why so many people have thrown their support behind RED and come to their defense savagely. I'm a fan of the 5D but I understand it's compromises,...and there are quite a few!

-Dane
Click to expand...

For me it is a stop gap. I like highly sensitive cameras and I cannot afford anything at the moment with the $5k I have sitting in the bank that gives me the sensitivity of the 7D. I continue to make money with it on the weekends, mostly shooting music videos, and continue to throw all the money I make from it into the bank. At this rate, I will be able to have a very nice Fixed and S35 brain.

We had a long discussion yesterday after a military short film I was a camera operator for. We've done maybe 20-30 shoots with the 7Ds and are VERY confident with them. What we both agree on is we are NOT confident in taking big jobs with them, period. We have held off a few projects and turned down some events because our HVX200 was being used for other projects at the same time.

I see the same arguments here that I see in the audio community. People don't want to pay $100k for a Neve console when they can pay $800 for an audio interface and do all the work inside the computer. The people with the VERY NICE equipment complain that people with crappy quality hardware are taking their business because they have lower overhead. And the truth is, they are right, some people don't care about the extra quality.

I see that frustration here. I TOTALLY understand it. The problem is, sometimes it is hard to convince a customer that the quality you bring IS worth the extra cost of the equipment you use. To add to that, some people here get upset with other users that go along with using the cheaper equipment and not demanding to their clients that they should want more.

Until the Scarlets get out the door, this situation isn't going to get any better. I cannot afford a Red One MX, even if I'd shoot the hell out of one in a heart beat with all the projects we do. So I wait. And I have to wait quite awhile to get the S35 given the release schedule. But I think it is worth it.

I think a lot of smaller jobs are going to get relegated to the Scarlets and I think the Epic owners are STILL going to have a lot of competition in the lower budget market. That's something definitely that needs to be considered if people are already getting dinged by the DSLR influx.
 
Robert Frank said:
How is this constructive?




Yes, you are.:laugh:


Sorry, got side tracked feeding the troll.
Click to expand...


I was just saying you get what you pay for . We all know that RED is way better so why does it keep coming up over and over?? :confused5:

You don't have to slam canon it just gives them credit where its not due.


I'm a troll? Ive been on here a while and yes I care about RED as a company and applaud the monumental task of what they are doing.

I also would really prefer to buy American.

At the same time I'm still a person and I let things get the best of me.



I wear my heart on my sleeve.

sorry, im not an ass kisser , politician or a yes man. If that makes me a troll

Im OK with that :devil:



I'm sorry to those i offended and admit to being a bit bi polar.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top