Good enough...

[Anson Fogel]

Yes, Shawn, but the trailer is pretty terrible - been so busy have not had time to update it! Don't want to jack the thread, so created a new post at
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44649

 

[Brad Olsen]

Yes, all projected at 1920x1080 fed HDMI from a consumer Sony BluRay player. The festival asked for BluRay or DVD, and msot submitted BluRay or a 1080 file of one form or another which was then mastered to BluRay by the projectionist.

well, i think rick hit on the point i've been trying to make, acquisition of 4k has benefits that pay off when scaling down for distribution. I think 1080p should stay the home entertainment (web/disc/broadcast) standard. Super-sampling has benefits

 

[M Most]

The Bluray boxset of 'Planet Earth' is already outselling the DVD boxset of 'Planet Earth':

That's another production in which the visuals are everything. You're bringing up the exceptions to the rule. I'm bringing up the (at least current) rule. But going on about this is futile. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, based on what I see, read, and experience as someone working in the entertainment industry. I'm not going to convince you of anything, and you're not going to convince me of anything. So I'm going to leave it alone now with the statement that only time will tell.

 

[Tom Lowe]

That's another production in which the visuals are everything. You're bringing up the exceptions to the rule. I'm bringing up the (at least current) rule. But going on about this is futile. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, based on what I see, read, and experience as someone working in the entertainment industry. I'm not going to convince you of anything, and you're not going to convince me of anything. So I'm going to leave it alone now with the statement that only time will tell.

That's right. Time will tell. I bet dollars to donuts that Jim Jannard and 4K distribution believers will be getting the last laugh, and much sooner than many can imagine. :sifone:

 

[Rick Burnett]

That's another production in which the visuals are everything. You're bringing up the exceptions to the rule. I'm bringing up the (at least current) rule. But going on about this is futile. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, based on what I see, read, and experience as someone working in the entertainment industry. I'm not going to convince you of anything, and you're not going to convince me of anything. So I'm going to leave it alone now with the statement that only time will tell.

I am CERTAINLY with you on this myself. At home I run 720p projection to a 126" screen. I still own a HUGE library of DVDs and I see NO REASON to change out any of those for Bluray. Many of the Bluray releases of older movies are just HORRIBLE. And yes, they want to charge you $10 more.

When the bulb in this projector dies, I am DEFINITELY going to 1080p, but would not even consider 4k even if it was available. I believe myself 1080p as a delivery format is going to be around for A LONG time for the home user.

THAT SAID, if the film industry wants to get people out of their houses and into a theatre, they need to offer something that is a gain to people. Do I go to the regular cinema? No, because my 720p system is typically clearer and I don't have some idiot on a cellphone in front of me. I do however have a season pass to the IMAX because people that go there, pay more, and generally are there FOR the extra quality. I am there for that as well, it is awesome (when it isn't fake 3D).

This is why I personally advocate higher than 4k for the industry for acquisition. For both large scale projection and giving the user freedom. Shooting at 5k, if you needed to crop just to a small portion of an image you could. Can you do that with a 1080p camera? No. I mean, you can, but then you are getting a sub-1080p result. No thanks.

I think with iTunes and Amazon selling MILLIONS of MP3s at a lossy compression teach us one thing. People are willing to trade quality for other reasons. I am guilty of this too. Back when I got my first MP3 player I reduced the quality of my songs so I could have more than 3 CDs worth on my player so I had some variety at the gym (yes, that long ago).

But we are NOT those people from the creation standpoint. When you are an artist, just because you know in your mind you only need 3 colors to paint a picture doesn't mean you don't bring out your whole palette. Sometimes you realize while looking at your vast array of colors that another color would look really nice in your masterpiece. You have it now, there with you, and you can use it. That's how I see 4k (and beyond). It's freedom. It's why RAW is such an awesome part of the equation now. You don't have to get it perfect always, you are free to change your mind. Thank you!

 

[Gabriel Soares]

Probably the 1080p will be the VHS of the future, and the 4K will be the 1080p of the future and so on.

What I know is that we are living the time that the images produced electronically are reaching the quality of 35mm film. And the whole set, not only spatial resolution. This is really major.

Put the VHS in the middle of the play doesn't make much sense to me.

Putting aside the spatial resolution, today we have tools to produce 1080p images with film quality. In the era of VHS, it was not possible to produce film-quality images.

 

[Tom Lowe]

People who are saying "Yes 1080p will be the new VHS, and 4K will be the next VHS" etc, are not seeming to take into account the theoretical upper limit of 35mm scanning, which is 4K. Once you move beyond 4K as a display format, you essentially have to toss out 100 years worth of entertainment. That places a theoretical ceiling of sorts on 4K as the gold standard of display for a long time to come. 1080p did not have this ceiling, but was simply one stepping stone along the path to 4K.

Yes, there will be digital IMAX and 4K+ display, but they will not go mainstream for a long time, because, again, you'd have to toss out 100 years worth of film as "native" resolution content.

 

[Rick Burnett]

People who are saying "Yes 1080p will be the new VHS, and 4K will be the next VHS" etc, are not seeming to take into account the theoretical upper limit of 35mm scanning, which is 4K. Once you move beyond 4K as a display format, you essentially have to toss out 100 years worth of entertainment. That places a theoretical ceiling of sorts on 4K as the gold standard of display for a long time to come. 1080p did not have this ceiling, but was simply one stepping stone along the path to 4K.

Yes, there will be digital IMAX and 4K+ display, but they will not go mainstream for a long time, because, again, you'd have to toss out 100 years worth of film as "native" resolution content.

How is that tossing out 100 years of film? I still play DVDs on my 720p system, just upscaled. People will still play stuff on their 4K stuff just the same.

It's not a question of losing anything, it's a question of what do you gain. The argument can be made that you only start gaining once you start releasing new material in the higher formats. Most theaters I know ONLY show new stuff. The ones that don't are crappy to begin with.

When the CD came out, I didn't stop listening to my Robert Johnson collection from the 40s. Sure, from an audiophile perspective, it sounds like absolute crap, but from a musician standpoint it is awesome to have. Older movies will continue to have that appeal because of what they are. I watch a lot of older movies that frankly look horrible, but for the time period were probably great (Metropolis).

People still watch NON HD video on their HD televisions.

Also, perceptive difference is a HUGE factor. You can't tell me that someone watching a 30" screen from 6 feet away is going to notice nuch difference between 4k and 5k. yet, they WILL notice a difference between 480p and 1080p.

I just wish companies would start making better scalars. This seems to be the biggest problem I have faced. Watching lower rez content on a high rez screen and you are at the mercy of a realtime scalar, and many of them are absolute crap.

 

[Tom Lowe]

How is that tossing out 100 years of film? I still play DVDs on my 720p system, just upscaled. People will still play stuff on their 4K stuff just the same.

I don't watch any SD material on my 47" 1080p HDTV, period. I only scan through the HD channels now. Many people essentially do the same. I have about 100 DVDs. I have not watched any of them in about three years. I would rather wait and watch at 1080p.

But when you move beyond 4K, then by definition you have to remove 100 years worth of film as "native content" and simply accept that it's all going to be "upscaled." People do not like to compromise on image quality, especially when they pay big bucks for TVs or projectors. They will want a display standard that will allow over 100 years worth of films and TV to display "natively" on their TV.

You might disagree with me, but in my mind, it is crystal clear: 4K will be the new display format, and it will be the "gold standard" for a long time to come, because of the scan ceiling for 35mm film.

 

[Brad Olsen]

I don't watch any SD material on my 47" 1080p HDTV, period. I only scan through the HD channels now. Many people essentially do the same. I have about 100 DVDs. I have not watched any of them in about three years. I would rather wait and watch at 1080p.

Really? Seems like a waste of 100 DVDs to me!

 

[Michael Brennan]

What am I going to watch on my 2010 4K monitor? ... The only reason to have a 4K monitor in my living room is if were 100" or larger and I wanted to watch it from twice as far away, but that would be rather out of scale for my little living room. ...

Or if I were going to park the 4K monitor on my desk and sit three feet from it to watch movies. -- get me 4K in the cinemas first, then talk about the home. We need 4K up on those 50' to 75' screens more than we need it on sub-50" monitors.

I hear you. My kids and family are spending as much time in front of computer screens watching movies video than the big screen in the rumpus room.
A 40 inch 4k on the desktop enables multiple windows to be left open at their full resolution.

Yes 4k screens for a living room would need to be twice the size of current
screens. History tells us that given a reasonable price point consumers will rearrange the living room.

Cinema has always been seen as a higher quality experience than TV. But the Cinema industry and its associated trade and industry bodies gravitated to the lowest common denominator resulting in theater screen resolutions of 700 lines, according the SMPTE test done in early 2000.

I'd love to see 4k in cinemas but based on the history of cinema, it will need some competition to make them jump. Cinema has only ever made improvements when it thought it had to, ie colour when B&W tv came along, widescreen when colour TV came along and now 3D when 1080 large screen TVs dominate the home.


Perhaps 3D HDTV will create the competion for cinema and feature industry to jump to 4K.

There is no doubt in my mind that in the next 15 years, new systems born out of UltraHD experiments and REDs offerings, will put similar presure on cinemas to match or better the quality.


So talk of using a measely 5k Epic to "future proof" a project for 20 years ignores the persistent rate of change since the birth of electronic imaging.http://reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

In this respect, until epic +5k delivers, fine grain 35mm film and +5k res VFX comes closest to future proofing todays production for ultrahd projection or transmission.


Mike Brennan

 

[Rick Burnett]

I don't watch any SD material on my 47" 1080p HDTV, period. I only scan through the HD channels now. Many people essentially do the same. I have about 100 DVDs. I have not watched any of them in about three years. I would rather wait and watch at 1080p.

But when you move beyond 4K, then by definition you have to remove 100 years worth of film as "native content" and simply accept that it's all going to be "upscaled." People do not like to compromise on image quality, especially when they pay big bucks for TVs or projectors. They will want a display standard that will allow over 100 years worth of films and TV to display "natively" on their TV.

You might disagree with me, but in my mind, it is crystal clear: 4K will be the new display format, and it will be the "gold standard" for a long time to come, because of the scan ceiling for 35mm film.

Well I think you are the exception rather than the rule. There are plenty of things I own that will probably NEVER be available even on Bluray and even when I watch them upscaled, I enjoy them VERY VERY much.

I know MANY people, MANY MANY MANY people that still watch SD material on their HD displays. That's not an opinion, it is a fact. I also watch MANY MANY people buy DVDs at the store, and have been told by people they aren't paying the Bluray price just to have HD. This is not my feelings, but those who I've asked.

People have been buying HD televisions for A LOT LOT longer than HD was available as an option over cable OR Bluray or HDDVD were available. I still don't have a Bluray player yet. The ONLY reason I am getting one now is I want to see Book of Eli on it since it was shot on a RED ONE.

I'm not convinced 4k at the home is going to be a gold standard for a LONG LONG time. Especially looking at how long it has taken 1080p to get into the average household. *I* had to buy my parents and HD television to get them into it. "Our old one is perfectly fine"

When 4k material is downscaled to what they have, they get what they've been getting. They are happy. They know no better.

And I still buy DVDs. Yet, here I am, ready to buy a 3k camera

And people can certainly still buy high quality versions of music on CD yet more people buy online now with lesser quality. People stream online with Netflix with inferior quality, even though there are higher quality versions available. I think the market speaks for itself.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I don't watch any SD material on my 47" 1080p HDTV, period. I only scan through the HD channels now. Many people essentially do the same. I have about 100 DVDs. I have not watched any of them in about three years. I would rather wait and watch at 1080p.

But when you move beyond 4K, then by definition you have to remove 100 years worth of film as "native content" and simply accept that it's all going to be "upscaled." People do not like to compromise on image quality, especially when they pay big bucks for TVs or projectors. They will want a display standard that will allow over 100 years worth of films and TV to display "natively" on their TV.

You might disagree with me, but in my mind, it is crystal clear: 4K will be the new display format, and it will be the "gold standard" for a long time to come, because of the scan ceiling for 35mm film.

I agree with what you have said about the future of 4k, but saying (if you are) that watching sd is pointless or not worth your time is a little ridiculous to me. I love quality and high resolution movies, but I would take the sd version of the original the day the earth stood still over the remake any day. Now I know you would most likely agree with that but knocking the format that most people can only afford these days is not exactly polite to me. Yes there are better formats yes we should all look to adopt them, but knocking what we have now, in the way you do, is just insulting.

that's just me being a struggling artist with an only sd broadcast that I pay far to much for. No offense meant Tom you seem like a very nice person and your website helped me a ton with my first time lapses.

have a good one
Peace

 

[Tom Lowe]

I agree with what you have said about the future of 4k, but saying (if you are) that watching sd is pointless or not worth your time is a little ridiculous to me.

I really don't watch much TV. But when I do, I stick strictly to the HD channels now. I don't like the upscaled 4:3 stuff anymore. In terms of DVDs, let me give you an example. One of my favorite movies ever is The Thin Red Line. Right now, I know that Malick is supervising the transfer of that film to Bluray. So basically, instead of watching the DVD I have of it, or even the 720p HDTV rip, I will simply wait a year until the Bluray drops. It's worth it to me to wait. That is essentially true of most movies and TV shows. If you offered me a chance to watch BBC's LIFE in SD right now, I would rather turn you down and wait until I could watch on Bluray, even if that was a year away. It would be worth it to me.

By the way, I am not the only one who is absolutely convinced about 4K display being the new gold standard soon. Jim Jannard and the entire Red team believe it. Ask any of them. The best thing about Jim is that he has the vision and resources and business acumen to actually bend the entire film industry to his vision. Pretty impressive, from where I'm sitting.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I really don't watch much TV. But when I do, I stick strictly to the HD channels now. I don't like the upscaled 4:3 stuff anymore. In terms of DVDs, let me give you an example. One of my favorite movies ever is The Thin Red Line. Right now, I know that Malick is supervising the transfer of that film to Bluray. So basically, instead of watching the DVD I have of it, or even the 720p HDTV rip, I will simply wait a year until the Bluray drops. It's worth it to me to wait. That is essentially true of most movies and TV shows. If you offered me a chance to watch BBC's LIFE in SD right now, I would rather turn you down and wait until until I could watch on Bluray, even if that was a year way. It would be worth it to me.

By the way, I am not the only one who is absolutely convinced about 4K display being the new gold standard soon. Jim Jannard and the entire Red team believe it. Ask any of them. The best thing about Jim is that he has the vision and resources and business acumen to actually bend the entire film industry to his vision. Pretty impressive, from where I'm sitting.

that is fair enough and I felt the same with many movies I'm waiting to watch. However I don't feel that this is anywhere near the norm (from what I can tell). I just believe the average consumers adoption of this technology might be a little slower than you are anticipating. In no way am I saying it wont happen, just not as fast as some think. Don't get me wrong 4k can't get here fast enough for me, unfortunately all that matters is if it is affordable and wide spread.

but hopefully I'm wrong and all this happens before I even notice, and if it does I will be delighted.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Stephen I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

BTW, I do watch some SD stuff, especially Turner Classic Movies. :yesnod:

 

[Rick Burnett]

that is fair enough and I felt the same with many movies I'm waiting to watch. However I don't feel that this is anywhere near the norm (from what I can tell). I just believe the average consumers adoption of this technology might be a little slower than you are anticipating. In no way am I saying it wont happen, just not as fast as some think. Don't get me wrong 4k can't get here fast enough for me, unfortunately all that matters is if it is affordable and wide spread.

but hopefully I'm wrong and all this happens before I even notice, and if it does I will be delighted.

I too don't watch much television either, I actually cancelled cable because the compression issues on both cable providers locally are HORRIBLE, and I refuse to pay for that.

I don't think ANYONE is arguing that 4k isn't going to look superior, but to get everyone out there to buy a new display, buy a new player, buy new media, it's going to be no different than looking at how Bluray/HDDVD have progressed, and I'd call that slow. Not to mention, you'd then have a 3rd format for awhile and distributors have to decide if they are going to give you DVD, Bluray, 4k? Go to any local video store and the majority of titles on the shelves are still DVD.

Then lets throw in the mix another 4k distribution format, as I am sure there will be competition. Does the industry stall again as another format war begins?

Given how technology advances, I'd say that Jim is right in the sense that eventually 4k will become a standard in the home, and I think one of the arguments for even shooting 5k and up is having your media in a higher format when that day comes. But distributors are going to release their movies in a way that makes the most money for their target audience. Getting all that technology into the home is going to be the hard part.

And people ARE going to be pissed off that now the movie they saw in the theatre, then saw on cable, then bought on VHS, and then DVD, and then Bluray, now they have to buy it AGAIN

(And there are a select few movies I own that I would buy on higher formats because they are so amazingly beautiful. Beverly Hills Cop is not one of them. I think that will be fine on DVD in my collection forever).

 

[Danish P.V.]

All facts and figures aside we`re missing one thing - the lives of most people are not centered around tv (as some of you seem to do) - actually, a lot of people, even from the entertainment industry, dislike putting it to the center of their appartements/houses, just like me. It simply hasn`t the relevance nor the attraction to get such a high priority. My next tv will be a "tiny" 80cm LCD screen because that`s all I need...

 

[Jannard]

All facts and figures aside we`re missing one thing - the lives of most people are not centered around tv (as some of you seem to do) - actually, a lot of people, even from the entertainment industry, dislike putting it to the center of their appartements/houses, just like me. It simply hasn`t the relevance nor the attraction to get such a high priority. My next tv will be a "tiny" 80cm LCD screen because that`s all I need...

Does that mean original content can all be shot on an iPhone?

Jim

 

[Michael Moreno]

I too don't watch much television either, I actually cancelled cable because the compression issues on both cable providers locally are HORRIBLE, and I refuse to pay for that.

I don't think ANYONE is arguing that 4k isn't going to look superior, but to get everyone out there to buy a new display, buy a new player, buy new media, it's going to be no different than looking at how Bluray/HDDVD have progressed, and I'd call that slow. Not to mention, you'd then have a 3rd format for awhile and distributors have to decide if they are going to give you DVD, Bluray, 4k? Go to any local video store and the majority of titles on the shelves are still DVD.

Then lets throw in the mix another 4k distribution format, as I am sure there will be competition. Does the industry stall again as another format war begins?

Given how technology advances, I'd say that Jim is right in the sense that eventually 4k will become a standard in the home, and I think one of the arguments for even shooting 5k and up is having your media in a higher format when that day comes. But distributors are going to release their movies in a way that makes the most money for their target audience. Getting all that technology into the home is going to be the hard part.

And people ARE going to be pissed off that now the movie they saw in the theatre, then saw on cable, then bought on VHS, and then DVD, and then Bluray, now they have to buy it AGAIN

(And there are a select few movies I own that I would buy on higher formats because they are so amazingly beautiful. Beverly Hills Cop is not one of them. I think that will be fine on DVD in my collection forever).

Haha :thumbup: lol

Totally agree with you
But... on the other hand it will be interesting if some movies that were fine on dvd like Beverly hills cop or Rambo, end up being a completely different experience rescanned for 4k and watched on a 4k monitor in the future.
Add surround sound version of beverly hills cop theme by Herbie Hancock and life really starts to change color and move you... mmmmm rock it:biggrin5: lol

Besides with the way movies are made lately with weak simple stories and too much cgi, and often remakes of already perfect films. I can see how bringing back the old classics and cult classics will be an interesting thing as with video games, the old ones still hold their fun factor with arcade Pacman and Super mario brothers on nes, as well as the return of classic analog synthesizers for music production.
History repeats itself and great things are almost timeless.
I have a great vintage synth collection
and I also buy a nes system now and then just to play the old gems, even if I have to smackem and rub some alchohol with q-tip :smash:

When dvds first rolled around I just kept hoping some of my old favorites would hurry up and come out again on dvd, too many interesting films probably didnt escape their vhs coffins ...

Time will tell, and their is a greater experience with these things in person than reading on a forum, to interface with something and be touched by its experience. Their is talk of 4k monitors and overkill which is easy for me to agree with as well, but almost all of us have not experienced it. This is the case with almost anything new or popular, people will feel the need to discuss it and analyze and come to conclusion without ever experiencing it for themselves. Life is always about whats next and what is the ultimate experience. We have to be happy with what we have but people will always push life to the limits by nature. It is what I feel when I hear a vintage synth for the first time, and there is a life to it, a feeling you get of the time it was made and the people who built it and the way something can be brought to life by someone's hard work and creativity. To breath life into something through our living hands. And to peer with our creative minds into the future and try and pull something out and put it together for others to experience.

It reminds me of when Jim says things like you guys have to see this on a 4k projector and it being a holy experience. Their is magic in the world, in one mans pursuit of high resolution digital recording of motion and still life, we are able to see the life that we embody in all its glory, the ultimate mirror, with the ability to go back in time and look in and see the bigger picture, the biggest picture....

And usually you get the feeling that Life is better lived outside than watching a Tv indoors, no matter what size :blush5:

I must be tired :laugh:
How did I write so much just from beverly hills cop??
does anyone have coming to america on blu ray.... lol

night :seeya: