Good enough...

[David Battistella]

Some of you are missing the point -- I did a TV series in 1080P 4:2:2 and I wasn't allowed to shoot Log mode because the production wanted to only make straight dubs for editorial, no Log to Rec 709 step despite the fact that it would only add a few bucks to the cost of post and give me another two stops of dynamic range to work with in the final color-correction.

So with that mentality, how do you convince them to shoot 4K RAW and spend the time & money doing conversions in post to 1080P, even if it's very little time & money?

It's not a question of passing the image purity test here, we are just acknowledging that some TV productions want broadcast-ready 1080P material right out of the camera, they don't even want to wait for a real-time RED Rocket™™ conversion in post and they certainly don't want to pay for it if anyone is charging.

Yes David. This is certainly something that we have all encountered. I think JIm was very specific to mention a replacement for FILM aquisition in his initial post and i think this is an important distinction.

Is 1080 "good enough" as a replacement for FILM?

It's hard to win the "good enough" argument when the 80/20 rule is in such full force these days in production.

It seems producers are completely willing to take 80% of the quality and 20% extra savings, rather than spend the extra 20% on FULL QUALITY images and the required additional processing.

This, to me, seems like the problem you just encountered on the last production you were on where 80% is "good enough".

David

 

[Jannard]

And what about the future? Movies AND tv shows will be re-released on 4K in the near future... at least those shot on film or RED 4K.

"Welcome Back Kotter"...

Jim

 

[James Brundige]

1080P is the VHS of the future...

Jim

Or at least the SD Betacam, which is also obsolete.

I have shot in some of the most remote, and occasionally deadly, places on the planet. It was awful to throw away 25 years of SD footage, some of it quite dearly acquired. That's one reason I was all over Red the moment I saw it. For the next twenty years, I can down-resolve any footage to whatever the broadcast industry comes up with.

For the moment, nature (my niche) stuff is mostly Varicam. I can't believe the resources these guys are throwing at 720p. Two months getting one shot? Think shelf life.

 

[Paul Nordin]

TV productions want broadcast-ready 1080P material right out of the camera, they don't even want to wait for a real-time RED Rocket™™ conversion in post and they certainly don't want to pay for it if anyone is charging.

Gotta agree here. Although David's experiences are likely coming from larger budget productions than what I run into. But, I run into this all too commonly, particularly on lower budget reality-show type shooting and live performances. What comes out of the camera goes onto the screen with the fewest steps possible. No transcodeing, no sound sync, nada. Just Import and Edit. Logic often has little to do with the decisions, dollars often do.

Of course for these types of gigs, I would not reccomend we use a currently shipping Red camera for those types of shoots. Maybe Scarlet will change that, but for now I push for rigs like the HDX3000.

It will be interesting to see how budget levels and producer mentality obsorb the marketed ability of Alexa to provide a great -filmlike- image out of the camera in ProRes. Again, this will appeal to those on the line budget/time-wise, and still trying to up production quality. I've shot quite a few medium budget spots/commercials for names you would recognize that would go this route if they could start editing the piece on the plane on the way home from the shoot in ProRes. And usually, those types are already starting to edit on-set between setups. Anything that facilitates that is seen as a plus, anything that adds steps is seen as a minus.

And before I get flamed as being unfair to Red, I'm hoping to elbow my way to the front of the line just as soon as Jim says "OK, now all the rest of you mokes that didn't buy a R1 can step up to the table and get an Epic."

 

[Dan Kanes]

Slightly off-topic, but a friend told me the other day:

Post-Production is the new Pre-Production.

Had to laugh and agree.

1080p might be "good enough" for web, but my mentality is still: quality is king.

 

[Dan Kanes]

It's hard to win the "good enough" argument when the 80/20 rule is in such full force these days in production.

It seems producers are completely willing to take 80% of the quality and 20% extra savings, rather than spend the extra 20% on FULL QUALITY images and the required additional processing.

The ultra low budget Producers are willing to take 20% quality and keep 80% of the money for themselves too hahaha!

 

[Tim H.]

David Mullen makes a good point though. As well all know David has extensive knowledge of film history and technical understanding of digital formats. If he is hired to shoot a film or tv show and they tell them they have X budget and it must be delivered in X format then he might have to leave the Red camera at home and shoot with something else if the Red camera can't deliver what the clients wants at the price they want it, even though it's superior. So if Red can offer some workflows direct from camera to make the Epic and/or Scarlet more flexible then why not? You don't have to use the 1080p ProRes module if you don't want to but for those that need it to meet budget constraints or existing workflow constraints why not?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You're debating the wrong person here. I'm all for more resolution and more dynamic range and getting the best picture for post and for posterity.

But many productions, especially TV ones, have a pretty strict budget and will only pay for anything beyond their immediate delivery needs if it adds ZERO to the budget -- and very few things have zero impact on budget. Yes, it's short-sighted and sad.

"Replacement for film" after all covers more than features, it covers commercials, music videos, and some high-end TV shows. The argument to master in 4K is easier to make for features, that's all, and it gets progressively harder to make with projects aimed at the small screen, particularly if they don't think they will be in syndication for decades to come.

 

[David Rasberry]

The question was about 1080p, not some cameras that say 1080p but are not.

An F35 resolves to perfect 1080p, just like Scarlet will (and alexa). Is that 1080p not good enough? If not, then what are the Scarlets for, to learn... for tv only?

Where do the 2/3" scarlets fit into Jim's philosophy, if he doesn't believe in 1080p/2k delivery?

I know i'm treading on thin ice persuing this... but as a potential buyer, I feel it needs to be asked by someone.

3k may not be 4k, but it is a huge step up from 1080p. Even for theatrical release at 2k or 4k 1.85:1 digital cinema it will be a major improvement over any 1080p native acquisition device. First modest cost digital motion camera likely to seriously challenge S16mm film for resolution, sensitivity, and dynamic range.

I have been waiting 30 years for a camera like the little Scarlet. 1080p is not good enough at this level either.

 

[Tim H.]

And what about the future? Movies AND tv shows will be re-released on 4K in the near future... at least those shot on film or RED 4K.

"Welcome Back Kotter"...

Jim

Jim, I agree but the problem comes from clients that don't share your forward looking thought process. They have to deliver a show now that meets todays budget. To make things worse film and tv is cutting back on budgets left and right making even harder to justify some of these things.

Having to walk that fine line of quality vs budget really sucks. This is why Red exists - no? Now that you got the production revolution started we have to start on the post-production revolution. Getting the costs down there is key so we can justify using higher quality workflows.

 

[Steve Das]

Sorry, no, it doesn't. It's very aliasy vertically, horizontally, the resolution is much lower than 1920 and is compromised by chroma moire and that the three RGB channels don't line up with each other. Graeme

Wow if that's F35...
hate to find out the actual resolution of the old F900

 

[James Brundige]

But many productions, especially TV ones, have a pretty strict budget and will only pay for anything beyond their immediate delivery needs if it adds ZERO to the budget -- and very few things have zero impact on budget. Yes, it's short-sighted and sad.

"Replacement for film" after all covers more than features, it covers commercials, music videos, and some high-end TV shows. The argument to master in 4K is easier to make for features, that's all, and it gets progressively harder to make with projects aimed at the small screen, particularly if they don't think they will be in syndication for decades to come.

At least in my area, Red is taking over the "shot on film for TV" niche - commercials etc. For episodic TV with eyes on budget more than long-term quality, it seems like a no-brainer to make a pro-res or Avid codec recording module. If Red can make the H264 module, it seems not much harder. Having an industry standard proxy (thats also good enough to broadcast) instantly available would be useful to many.

 

[Keith Brust]

1080P is the VHS of the future...

Jim

I'm counting on 1080p being the vhs of the future. That means in a few years time I get to go out and shoot all the most amazing wildlife stories all over again in 4k and get paid for it. I don't own the rights to most of the stuff I do. What I own I shoot in 4k. Why would I want to give a broadcaster the gift of 4k when all that want me to provide now is 1080p?

 

[ChrisLyon]

I always refer to the old "The best 1080 is from 2k, the best 2k is from 3k...." that we always used to hear from Graeme. If 4k is rolling out into theaters then it makes sense to me that 5k is the future of acquisition in the d-cinema market. Then of course there's 65 and 70mm equivalent capture and delivery.

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

I see a huge difference between Film and "the rest", in regards to shooting directly to prorez or a DNXhd type of workflow with the RED.

In feature films you rarely hear the word "good enough". but for TV episodic or even some high end commercials, where turn around time is very very tight, recording straight to a finishing codec might be a good idea, regardless of what that creates of limitations in the Color grade....

So Good enough for some, is not good enough for others... Different Options would be the solution here.

Ofcourse in regards to the future. Jim & Co. might be right in everything is going to be 4k, and that must be kindda frustrating when others aren't listening - content producers/ clients.....

 

[Javier_Rivera]

Hey Jim. I ran into an NYU CineTog that was down talking RED, saying the cameras are for Directors that don't trust their DP's. This person also mentioned that the cameras aren't user friendly and unless you know how to properly use a film camera, buying even a fixed scarlet would be a waste. I was puzzled only because I get most of my info about RED here. I've never touched a film camera, and I go to El Cheepo University whose best camera at the moment is a Canon GL2.
I guess my question stems from whether there is any credibility to what he stated and whether a person that isn't familiar with film is going to be dead in the water once they open the box to either their fixed or S35's.

 

[Brad Olsen]

So RED comes along when many of us were amazed by HVXs that had variable frame rates and DVCPRO HD tapeless recording for a price anybody could afford. RED tells us a dream they have of a future beyond HD, 4K. And they tell us they can do it for a price much lower than the competition who had yet to pass 1080p. RED delivered. And I love them for it.

Does that really mean we have to bash everybody else at the same time? 1080p still looks great, even on the big screen. I know everything improves at a faster and faster pace. While I see cinemas equipping for beyond HD in the next 10 years, I don't see broadcast or the web switching over. Doesn't anybody here recall how long it took to get 16:9 HD 1080i and 720p to be the broadcast standards? And we still haven't replaced all the film projectors with digital ones! Respected programs are still shot and mastered in SD!

Good for RED for having a dream and sticking to it. In stills a 2 megapixel image (pretty much HD res) looks like crap, so we need to move past it in the motion realm. But until Scarlet comes out I'll be happy shooting with an EX1. Good enough... for now...

 

[Jim Retar]

The problem with these pixel wars is that you'll see a bunch of prosumer/consumer cameras offering "Full 4K HD"... with disregard for DR, image quality, aliasing (and even resolution!).

High resolution is great.... but let's keep the image quality at the forefront of our choices. RED seem to have both under control... so great.

But, if another camera produced pristine 2k footage with an extra 2-3 stops of DR (for example), then it would be well worth taking into account for most any project... even a feature.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

And what about the future? Movies AND tv shows will be re-released on 4K in the near future... at least those shot on film or RED 4K.

"Welcome Back Kotter"...

Jim

Jim,

I could not agree with you more, and always stress this points even further with convincing to shoot S3D in 4K, while preserving a Monoscopic version of it, obviously 4K.


With "Welcome Back Kotter"... are you saying that the possible making of a Movie based on the series will be finally shot, and that will be shot on RED?

 

[M Most]

You're debating the wrong person here. I'm all for more resolution and more dynamic range and getting the best picture for post and for posterity.

But many productions, especially TV ones, have a pretty strict budget and will only pay for anything beyond their immediate delivery needs if it adds ZERO to the budget -- and very few things have zero impact on budget. ...The argument to master in 4K is easier to make for features, that's all, and it gets progressively harder to make with projects aimed at the small screen, particularly if they don't think they will be in syndication for decades to come.

There is also the issue of multiple formats. Just this week, I graded two pilots, one shot primarily on Red - but also containing a rather significant amount of footage from Canon and Iconix. The Canon and Iconix shots were used both full screen (for some establishing and 2nd unit shots) and as an effect (the show is a faux documentary, so the Iconix shots were played as "bad TV" shots). The fact is that very few projects are shot on one format any more, especially the ones that require "specialty" work. This also happened when we first started shooting with 3 perf format, because things like high speed cameras were not available in anything but 4 perf. So it became expected that any 3 perf show would inevitably contain some 4 perf material. The bottom line is that even if one archives in 4K (and I only know of one studio that's done that, and only on 2 shows, both primarily shot on Red), there will be material - sometimes significant amounts of it - that are not in that format.

Brook, if you're reading this feel free to chime in.