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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Good enough...

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“If 1080P is really "good enough"... then there is no reason for RED. We started this business because we believed that 1080P was NOT GOOD ENOUGH A FILM ALTERNATIVE/REPLACEMENT. Film has much more resolution than 1080P (almost 4 times). If the industry really believes that 1080P (or 2K) is good enough... please let us know so we can shut down and go on a forever vacation...” Jim Jannard

I Agree, for many reasons; First, let’s go back to the old Technicolor Tree Strip Process; it looks better than any film done today. Second, there is the resolution of a simple matter of 1080P vs. 5K, which is rally a true 4K after all the losses are calculated for many different reasons. Third, there is 3D itself, if done on 5K (really true 4K) with two cameras in which ever configuration you want. That would certainly make a rather nice 8K print, not to mentioned the equivalent TWO 4K projectors in the very near future.

Fourth, for the non 3D people there is the 5K (4K) film resolution (of Red) that would surpass the resolution of the current 35mm film. Fifth, all of that is using the current glass, tripods, lights, in general everything, all the tools of filmmaking, just substitute the Epic S35 Camera. Six, it’s just simply not just resolution, it’s the whole package, camera, ISO/ASA, software beyond the camera, other devices, working with other companies, it’ that and more that make the Second Generation of the Red Epic 5K Camera complete. Why are some Films shot on 65mm? And the cost of handling that mass of film.

I could go on and on, but I’m not going too. RED CINEMA, go along with your plan for tomorrow and for far beyond that, you’re on the right path. The other companies are struggling to keep up. My thanks to “Misha” for egging on Jim, and then to Jim for assembling the ‘Best Team’ possible, they have achieved the Dream!

"Good Enough, is not Good Enough" motto USMC. Simper-Fi, to Peter Hodgins.

I’m sitting here working on three scripts while the Fourth Stage Comes Along, whatever it is today, it will be more then.

Humberto Rivera
 
Let's not forget resolution is not the end all. 1080p at 50fps, originated from a S35 (or larger) sensor with a 15 stop Dynamic Range and 3, 4 or 5K resolution, would be something I would like to see.

I've seen beautiful images, and beautiful films, originated on just about every media you can think of. It's about the right tool for the job and more importantly, it's about mastering the tool you have at hand.

Cheers,
Damien
 
Lets not get it twisted! the concept behind shooting higher resolution wasnt invented recently,the fact is, we have been shooting Super35 to then dump to d-beta then standard def 15 years ago if not 20. So 1080p enough is irrelavent and whomever thinks so can take their puny 5dmkII and be off.
 
Jannard said:
1080P is the VHS of the future... mark my words.

Jim
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I like the sound of that. I've never felt more comfortable and confidant in buying whatever is coming out or new with RED. Already in line for the Epic and will continue to invest into the next generation.
 
Of course 1080p is not good enough, and you can bet I’ll shoot my film at 4k, but it’s essential anyway. Many of our collective clients are not trying to replace film at all, never shot film, never will shoot film, not interested. They just want their 1080p.

Yes I own video cameras but I love my Red more and I want to shoot it on every job. In an ideal world, we would shoot both 4k and 1080p, thus making it future proof. Many producers don’t want to deal with transcoding, and their lies the real issue. By continuing to ignoring the current workflow (1080p) my Red often sits on the shelf. So far three producers are excited about Alexa due to the ease of workflow.

The question really isn’t “ is 1080p good enough” The question is demand and future proofing. Many of our clients live and breath in the 1080p environment. We as directors of photography, equipment vendors and editors are often servicing this demand.

Arri is coming out with a camera to service this demand. No, 1080p is not good enough but it’s certainly in high enough demand to base a new camera on it in 2010. Give us and our clients the choice and the chance to compete with Alexa. Give us a 1080p ProRes 444 module so the Epic becomes the de-facto camera on every shoot! Make it backwards compatible with the Red one and you’ll sell 10,000 of them.
 
I couldn't agree more with Bob. The lack of an easy 1080p (read prorez) workflo is a major sticking point for my broadcast clients right now. There is no question that they want the look/features of my Red but they get hung up on the post end. I would much rather a Prorez module than an h.246 module. I am looking forward to scaled 1080p output from the Epic as well.
 
Casey Ryan Stone said:
Why all this talk of resolution? It's like the mega pixel wars that are still going on in the stills market.

2k, after debayer, is definitely good enough for me. 2.5 even better, but believe me when I tell you that resolution is towards the bottom of my concerns. Even if 5k was available for the Scarlet I doubt as an indy if I could afford the post workflow.

Dynamic range, noise floor, Raw, FLUT, touch focus, 120fps, any lens I want to use, all the accessories, etc etc. With all that, pardon me if I don't worry about the resolution.
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Can't afford PremierePro CS5? $800 street. Can't afford MediaComposer? $1900 street. Both support native R3D worklflows.

2k after debayer isn't even 1080p, so your standards are obviously pretty low... you must have been one of those guys that said SD was "good enough" too.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Tom,

Titanic shot on 35mm, released in 1997, Original Star wars 35mm 20 years before that. So rather little in the last 10 years....

Avatar would then 'prove' 1080p is good enough, not seen it myself so can't comment. The industry will only be turned on it's ear if the success of Avatar can be repeated on a regular basis.

Stephen
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Stephen, you argue that 1080 is indeed "good enough", yet you have over 3,000 posts on this forum. You are taking the position that the camera you have commented on over three thousand times has too much resolution, is too affordable and it is not being taken seriously by the professional community, in spite of the fact that over seven thousand cameras have been shipped-- more than any other professional 35mm cinema camera in the same time-frame.

You have the right to hold any position, of course. But I can't reconcile the stark divide between your stated positions and your actions (3,000+ posts). What exactly are you doing here?
 
Jim Retar said:
Are the Scarlet 2/3"'s not good enough then?

Not trying to flame, it's a genuine question from someone who was seriously thinking of investing in your product.... would they not be recommended as a means to create a motion picture?

If you don't believe in them, why shoud I?
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Scarlet is not for people shooting major motion pictures.
 
Ben Holmes said:
1080p is NOW the finishing format and frame size of choice for TV. It will be for the next 10 years. ProRes is the editing format of choice for a massive percentage of editors, posthouses etc.

[snip]

Whether you like it or not, if you do not offer the vastly simplified 1080p workflow of your competitors (which I hope you will based on the epic specs and talk of 1080 FF) you will lose business. Please - offer a ProRes module in the vein of the H264 proxy module already announced. You can still have 4k capture for archive - but some of us live and work in the present, and remarks like this (whether intended or not) smack of arrogance.
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Translation of the above: "I care more about convenience than quality". Okay - your choice. Can't say that's a position I'm comfortable with.

Even if delivering for TV, higher quality acquisition formats (35mm, Red), and higher quality post formats (raw) yield superior images. Why hasn't 35mm gone away for television? Quality matters more than convenience to most of the industry.

Heck, you should shoot on a Flip MinoHD: I hear those are super easy to post. I'm pretty sure there's a forum for their users somewhere else.

- Tim
 
giving a statement like 1080p is the vhs of future very funny imho.
16mm still alive and look at what camera used on the movie that won Best Picture in Oscar '10.Hurt Locker shot on 16mm not RED.Am i wrong?
 
Jim Retar said:
Are the Scarlet 2/3"'s not good enough then?

Not trying to flame, it's a genuine question from someone who was seriously thinking of investing in your product.... would they not be recommended as a means to create a motion picture?

If you don't believe in them, why shoud I?
Click to expand...

The Scarlet being 3K yields exceptional and true 2K. This is a defacto improvement over current 1080 cameras, which have been proven to have less resolution than advertised.

The "Good Enough" argument pertains specifically to working Professionals that believe development of cameras with greater than 2K resolution is a waste of time at worst and premature at best. Of course this is a fantasy world where innovation and progress don't exist, but the attitude prevails for the time being, hence all the frustration and crazy-talk.
 
My background is as a 25 year veteran music recording engineer, and like many of us, I've alway been about the quality of sound and the recording medium.

The quality standard that is the audio CD is far below what is possible with digital audio. Every attempt to to introduce a higher quality consumer deliverable (mainly DVD-A) has been met with consumer indifference.

When people had their music collection on cassette tapes, it was not difficult to convince them to purchase the CD, because the benefits were obvious. Hardly anyone perceived DVD-A as being enough of an improvement in spite of greatly improved sonics and 5.1 surround. It didn't commercially matter, and in fact the way music is sold (or not sold) today is in the form of the online MP3 which sounds even worse than the CD. I watch TV shows online.

I see this repeated in the slow acceptance of Blu-ray. I may rent or purchase a new Blu-ray, but most people are not likely to replace 10 years of DVDs.

This shouldn't keep us from using the best acquisition formats possible. But history tells me there is a point from a consumer standpoint that is good enough.

STeve
 
Jeff Coatney said:
The Scarlet being 3K yields exceptional and true 2K. This is a defacto improvement over current 1080 cameras, which have been proven to have less resolution than advertised.
Click to expand...

The question was about 1080p, not some cameras that say 1080p but are not.

An F35 resolves to perfect 1080p, just like Scarlet will (and alexa). Is that 1080p not good enough? If not, then what are the Scarlets for, to learn... for tv only?

Where do the 2/3" scarlets fit into Jim's philosophy, if he doesn't believe in 1080p/2k delivery?

I know i'm treading on thin ice persuing this... but as a potential buyer, I feel it needs to be asked by someone.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Not George Lucas? Not James Cameron? Michael Mann? David Fincher?

I guess they figured their films were just temporary.
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Why did Lucas shoot 1080p? Digital acquisition has clear advantages for a VFX film. 1080p was the highest quality format available at the time. Would Lucas choose 1080p today? Doubt it.

Ditto for Fincher. I think we all know what format he's shooting today.

The basic argument here seems to be: "Some great directors once chose to shoot 1080p, so therefore it must be good enough." Some great directors (Figgis, Bigelow) choose to shoot Super16 too -- does that mean it's "good enough"? Some great directors have shot NTSC. Is that "good enough"?

The Arri apologists need to give it a break... we all know Arri is going to be touting 4k as soon as they actually offer the capability. The rest of this is a smokescreen to buy them some time. I'm just depressed that otherwise intelligent people are falling for it.

- Tim
 
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