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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Good enough...

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Jim, Why you so! Thousands and thousands of people have been waiting for you camera a few long years! It is doesn't matter how it calls: 1080p or 2K or 5K...The matter is that we all need Epic or Scarlet! There is no the best camera for filmmakers may be ARRI but it is impossible for us because of price is good only for major production! and I don't wont to know how have you achieved this picture by 2K or 28K...I see the picture and I understand this is the chance for many of us to kick ass to these became too choosy major monopolistic productions!
We need you! And we need you cameras! And we need 4K, 5K because this is the only one way to be in the front line! And in a few years we will demand from you 6K, 10K because it calls progress! And this is one chance for us to kick ass to these became too choosy major monopolistic productions! Because if you give us only 2K these fucking majors wiil shoot in 4K and told us that we are loosers! If you give us 4K these fucking majors will shoot in 6K and told us that we are loosers again! Don't let it them! Give us the chance to kick as these moneybags with their millions budjets! Know that all of us count days to see you cameras in our hands! You can't drop it!
 
To be fair - at the time, those seemed like the best options. Remember, Fincher filmed Zodiac in 2005/06 and Benjamin Button in 2007 with pre-production - the time where the cameras are decided much earlier. At the time, Red wasn't an available option. It is clear that the "night look" Fincher or Mann are going for with digital isn't possible on film. It seemed like the best option.

Moving to 2009/10 - Fincher has decided that Red One M-X is the best option at this time, and he's rightfully using it.

As for Avatar, once again, Red didn't exist at the time Cameron started developing Avatar and his Fusion camera. Plus, it'd probably take a decade to render a film in 4+K which is 70% CGI.

There's no conspiracy - these directors know well which is the best option at the time - and they will no doubt consider with great deliberation all the options out there. Just because some of these films were done in 1080p does not mean that they are rejecting 4K. In most cases, it simply wasn't available at the time. In other cases, it wouldn't fit the aesthetic or process the director was going for - for whatever reason.
 
1080 is and was only a "stop gap solution".

It compares "favourably" with 35mm film because 35mm cine film was "all we had" and by that it was "good enough".

35mm Cine film formats are half the image size of 35mm stills film even if it is displayed "100 times" larger than stills film, and cine film is in motion which needs several times the resolution for equal image quality of stills film.
From a technical point of view,everything being equal quality for its proposed use, it should really have been the other way around.

35mm cine film release prints has never had 4K resolution.

IMAX has built its brand based on 15perf/70mm. There must be a reason they did not find 5perf/70mm to be "good enough".
Which should be good enough argument by itself for higher resolution, larger projection frames/projection chips, larger Camera sensors and higher framerates.

The projector manufacturers and theatre owners are still under the "illusion" that 2K is good enough for small screens and 4K is the "ultimate" for larger screens.
As soon as 8K+ digital cine cameras are available, this "illusion" will change, count the years on one hand!

If you Compare "good enough"(2K~24fps) to something that is not good enough (35mm~24fps cine film) you get something that is
NOT Good Enough!






 
1080P Good Enough Alliance (Sony, Arri, Panavision) vs. 4K For All Alliance (RED, Aaton,...)

Who is going to win?

Nobody knows.

Also RED should be aware that ARRI next launch camera could be "revamp", "remake", "remodel" and "redesign" of Arri's famous handheld Arriflex 35-II that
"is one of the most successful 35mm motion picture cameras ever built.
About 17,000 35 IIs had been built when ARRI ceased production of them in 1978...
Over 17,000 35 II’s were produced beginning in 1946 making this the best-selling model ARRI has ever had."

LINK>>>

Arri could put "1080P Good Enough" Alexa's sensor in that sort of future small camera and have again ProRes onboard recording with HD-SDI tethered recorder.

This camera that has "Good Enough 1080P" could compete with Epic.

And again they could advertised with their's famous credo: "It's an ARRI".

I would say that future of digital cinema acquisition is in a small cameras like Epic that can shoot @ 5K, 4k, 3K, 2K, HD with a small zoom 17-50mm RED PRO

and also other small lenses like a new Leica Summilux-C prime set, Carl Zeiss CP V2 set or Schneider-Kreuznach inexpensive new small prime set.

The future is in affordable mobile and handheld digital cinema camera that at least can acquire 4.5K of resolution also with onboard converting to 1080P (to please that another Alliance)

and a bunch of small lenses cine (mechanics to please AC) or still (cheaper with a still photo mechanics).
 
Jim, I think if you really believed it was good enough then this forum would not be here as I type this. There are people who can't switch it off, the creativity, the vision, the dissatisfaction with the status quo. I think you and your team are that kind of people. Even if you did go on a forever vacation I think you'd be back in no time... probably with an idea that slays even Epic.
 
Ok to start this off you need to understand I’m in my early twenties and as such have spent the better part of my life with a 42” wide screen TV and dvd’s. As such I don’t have any sort of love of cinema complexes, putting aside the fact that, the public are noisy, I have to travel and I don’t get to chose any movie I want, it is still riddled with flaws. My local cinemas are nearly always out of focus, the film is a low generation and low quality copy of the master so has much more noise and imperfections than my dvd and of course the fact that motors in the projector cause the image to wobble at times. At the moment I believe for the public, home entertainment out dose cinema especially if it was a feature shot at 1080P and as such the cinema didn’t even start with a better quality image.
And how important is HDTV in our homes, I for one have several Hd ready telles but still don’t get any live broadcasts in hd and only buy less than half new releases on blueray. Sometimes I feel it’s not too dissimilar from Sony telling me 3d needs a new 120fps screen to cope with 60P when I shoot films at 24P making my 100fps screen easily capable of displaying the required 48fps. Feels a bit like some one telling me I need something because hey can sell me something. Following all of this defiantly points towards 1080P being more than enough for my needs…

BUT

Feature projects make most money from cinema sales, if the mass public realise what I’ve said above most of you reading this are both screwed and unemployed (guessing you work with movies in one way or another). We need cinemas to progress to digital and preferably 4K, regardless of weather you shoot on film or digital. A direct from master above 1080 image is required for cinemas to compete in the current market, don’t believe me, just look at the peak we got in cinema sales when reelD made an entrance to local screens. if your working for TV or want your pay check today HD is ok, but if you want a job tomorrow shoot 4K.


P.S.
I also object to the concept that RED only is better because of it’s 4K sensor I watch most RED footage on a standard definition screen so .5K increase of the REDone mysreium x data is nothing, but I still know its better. I don’t think Arri would be where Alexis is if it didn’t have Epic to compete with, and on top of that RED’s versatility and value are both uncontested. It can pull off short that others are either too big to or not good enough to (yes I’m looking at you canon) and at a prise which is revolutionizing the independent market. Not to mention it’s size and weight making it grate for 3D rigs.


sorry for any typos i'm dislyexic
Wot Fanar
 
Tom Lowe said:
what percentage of ultra box-office hauls are cameron and lucas responsible for? star wars? titanic? indie? avatar?? cameron just turned the industry on its ear with a 1080p film and out-grossed the average film by 250x.

i don't think their films will die off, far from it, but pictures shooting from now on should keep an eye on 4K.
Click to expand...

Tom,

Titanic shot on 35mm, released in 1997, Original Star wars 35mm 20 years before that. So rather little in the last 10 years....

Avatar would then 'prove' 1080p is good enough, not seen it myself so can't comment. The industry will only be turned on it's ear if the success of Avatar can be repeated on a regular basis.

Stephen
 
1080p is not specifically the issue I don' think. It's the future proofing of your material thats the most important.
Having your content available for any deliverable for at least the next 5-10 years from the highest quality now to standard delivery practice later makes the most sense.

The other image acquisition options out now are fine cameras but you'll feel the bite down the road I'm sure.
 
Is it just me or whenever Mr. Jannard starts getting philosophical there is usually big news just around the corner? I could be wrong, but I've noticed a pattern.

Oh, and more capture information is always better than less. Not necessarily more resolution is better, but RED isn't just playing the more resolution game are they? 1080p is pretty when done well and artists use the tools they have but smart artists use the right tool for the right job. For the job of capturing a moving image (regardless of delivery spec) RED or film are the right tool.
 
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Peter Johnson said:
Is it just me or whenever Mr. Jannard starts getting philosophical there is usually big news just around the corner? I could be wrong, but I've noticed a pattern.
Click to expand...

I've noticed that as well. The next week or s should be fun. :emote_popcorn:
 
Jim,
I don't think anyone here would claim that "oversampling" is a bad thing. Hence we shoot 35mm for HD and SD delivery. And Red has set the quality bar high and the price point low, so now anyone can shoot a theatrical motion picture of VERY high quality with VERY low cost, compared to any option available just three years ago. And unless there is a compelling reason (camera in a backpack a la Slumdog) I don't know who wouldn't choose Red!
But in the larger world, many of us shoot for clients who don't know about or want to learn the processing of 4K (or 5K) RAW files. They want the beautiful, creamy, film-like images produced by a Red One, but in an easily ingestible format. This is for corporate and second-tier commercial clients, where I do most of my shooting (and renting of gear!) Yes, I know I can get a RED Rocket™™, but (especially in the corporate world) sometimes we just shoot and download in a van. I often go from client to client each day, so taking the footage home to transcode (unpaid) and returning the next day is not an option.
Guess what camera has been KILLING my business in these markets for the past six months? 5Dm2 and Seven DEE. When I see the two images side by side I marvel at how bad the DSLRs look in comparison. But they are cheap and easy.
From day one I've been asking (PITA, I know) for high quality 1080 scaled from the full sensor. It looks like Arri is going to deliver this with the Pro-Res recorder. I would love to own an Alexa, but I'm not sure it fits within my business plan.
I know, we will soon have an H.264 module, and perhaps I will buy one for each of my Epics... I don't know. It's great as a proxy solution, but not for my clients who want HIGH QUALITY 1080 images. Why, oh why, can't we have a Pro-Res module???
So, in short, the answer is NO. 1080 is not good enough. Not in a vacuum. But sometimes the client's "good enough" is what you want.
So no vacation. Back to work. But maybe spare a few members of the team and work on a Pro-Res (or DVCPro HD) module.
Cheers,
Harry
 
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Considering TV - 1080p is here to stay for the next years.
In Europe, many still distribute SD or have been until recently.
That doesn't mean that i would capture in 1080p though. 4k RAW is a huge benefint - for higher MTF (especially microcontrast) alone
Cinematography and home theatre is of course a different story.

Regards, Matt
 
Good enough is never good enough!

I remember when I first got my VHS deck back in the 80s. I taped a show off the the TV that saturday morning, and I literally couldn't tell the difference between the live broadcast (which are generally pretty darn good in the UK) and the recording. After not-too-long, I could see the fuzziness, the dropouts, the low resolution, the timebase errors and poor chroma quality.

The next step for me was S-VHS, which was a very obvious improvement over VHS, but by then my eyes and brain were tuned enough to see the faults.

Then Panasonic MII for some production work, which was nice, (and affordable for some reason) but certainly not perfect.

MiniDV was better, but by then I knew how to spot typical digital artifacts as well as analogue ones.

And they were all standard definition, and all varied wildly in quality. One aspect was absolute image quality, and the other was "production headroom", those qualities that stop the image deteriorating over editing and effects. Film obviously had loads of production headroom for SD broadcast, but that was not something we could afford!

With the move to HD (and all new TV formats that are higher resolution have been called "HD", so 405 line black and white was indeed HD when it was launched), the resolution increased, but the production headroom fell right back. Before HD, there were great SD cameras that had over-specified chips and would downsample to SD. The best digibeta cameras did this, and it really helped their image quality stand up, especially by recording 10bit whereas the new HDCAM format was 8bit, with 3:1:1 chroma and was, quite frankly, noticeably over-compressed. In the "production headroom" aspect, we'd made a step backwards for sure.

Slowly things got better, but broadcast caught up (by moving to HD) leaving the new improved HD formats with little or no production headroom again. Of course, 35mm film still had production headroom.

Now we can certainly see where things are going....

Once you live with 4k, it's addictive to have that level of detail, that production headroom at your fingertips. 5k is more addictive.

Graeme
 
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Cattle

Cattle

"If you build it, they will come."

Truth is we dont know what we want until we have the option.
1080p is only "good enough" because it's what the gatekeepers
have jammed down our indiscriminate throats. We "settle" all the
time for science (the world is flat), music (mp3), cars (gas powered), energy (unsustainable) and visual (vhs, dvd, HD, etc.). There's always the need
for the revolutionary explorer i.e. RED digital cinema...so yes we see
that in you and your vision Jim. We appreciate it...and all of us RED one
owners say "We have seen the future and it is RED it is us..."
 
Are the Scarlet 2/3"'s not good enough then?

Not trying to flame, it's a genuine question from someone who was seriously thinking of investing in your product.... would they not be recommended as a means to create a motion picture?

If you don't believe in them, why shoud I?
 
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