Gini rigs cage for Scarlet

[Don Whitley]

Just purchased the scarlet cage purchased on Monday arrived today. Didn't have screws to mount the top plate but other than that it's was built just fine. I was afraid that it would have been made out of heavy duty plastic but after opening the package I was satisfied with the purchase.

Paid $299.00 plus the $55 dollar shipping which seems a little high

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

I don't think a true pro would be seen dead with this IMHO.

Because a "true pro" needs to spend 4 to 5 times the money for basically the same product?

I'm sorry, but having gear that isn't necessarily an original doesn't make you a true or non pro. Your comment doesn't really make sense.

 

[Don Whitley]

I agree also I believe it's not the clothes you put on but it's the person that wears them that makes them look good. So with any accessory you add to the scarlet, epic, or red one the end result will always end with a great picture because the camera is so well built.

So dress your baby how ever you like its your choice

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Because a "true pro" needs to spend 4 to 5 times the money for basically the same product?

I'm sorry, but having gear that isn't necessarily an original doesn't make you a true or non pro. Your comment doesn't really make sense.

His comment does make sense, because a creative pro respects other creative pros. He or she doesn't hand over their money to those who rip off other people's design work and sweat equity to make a quick buck. Their follow-focus is a rip-off of Cinevate's - like a PHOTOCOPY. Also, Cinevate pays their staff a living wage - does Gini?. How would you like it if someone copied your pitch for something, undercut your bid (because they saved $$ on the writing work) and then paid you $0 and did not even credit you.

This thread should be shut down and deleted, because it promotes what is full-on a criminal organisation that defrauds reduser legitimate sponsors.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Because a "true pro" needs to spend 4 to 5 times the money for basically the same product?

I'm sorry, but having gear that isn't necessarily an original doesn't make you a true or non pro. Your comment doesn't really make sense.

Because a true pro:

1. Wouldn't want to be seen on set with low quality crap gear and

2. Because a true pro doesn't buy blatant ripoff gear from a company that has no respect for the law and other peoples trademarks.

I predict 'scarlet-epic.com' will be owned by RED in the very near future...

Mike

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

I agree with your points, Gini's product is an absolute blatant ripoff of other products that have taken months of development and a lot of working hours to create. I, and many others here would love to be able to afford VF Brook or a RED tactical cage, but the price difference to us is quite large for a piece of kit that basically has the same functionality and build quality of it's 'real' counterpart.

If the price difference wasn't that extreme then you wouldn't see people flocking to buy a product that is a blatant ripoff. Not to say we're all penny pushers here but we'd like to get good bang for our buck.

And a true professional wouldn't care what they'd be seen with. At the end of the day, these are tools to help us visualize a vision. If you can get by with 4 pieces of plastic glued onto some makeshift top plate... all the power to you. Don't judge a person on professionalism based on what they use.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I agree with your points, Gini's product is an absolute blatant ripoff of other products that have taken months of development and a lot of working hours to create. I, and many others here would love to be able to afford VF Brook or a RED tactical cage, but the price difference to us is quite large for a piece of kit that basically has the same functionality and build quality of it's 'real' counterpart.

If the price difference wasn't that extreme then you wouldn't see people flocking to buy a product that is a blatant ripoff. Not to say we're all penny pushers here but we'd like to get good bang for our buck.

And a true professional wouldn't care what they'd be seen with. At the end of the day, these are tools to help us visualize a vision. If you can get by with 4 pieces of plastic glued onto some makeshift top plate... all the power to you.

This has nothing to do with appearances (which do matter on a real set with a paying client, BTW, but let's pretend they don't)

A true professional has integrity. That's why I don't support criminals, no matter how many "savings" I have to pass over. I mean, take this to the logical extreme - would you steal another reduser's camera? Would you rip off your crew of their pay? But yet it's OK to rip off Cinevate and others, and not pay them for their design work, right? Me says wrong.

Besides - I'm sure it is not really quite the same quality. You all will find out the hard way in a few months - on ebay thsi guy has had many complaints and apparently has no customer service at all - read the complaints. Forced labour in hell-hole factories have limits to what they can do, no matter how many times their families are threatened.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Still looks like a Fiero to me

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

This has nothing to do with appearances (which do matter on a real set with a paying client, BTW, but let's pretend they don't)

A true professional has integrity. That's why I don't support criminals, no matter how many "savings" I have to pass over. I mean, take this to the logical extreme - would you steal another reduser's camera? Would you rip off your crew of their pay? But yet it's OK to rip off Cinevate and others, and not pay them for their design work, right? Me says wrong.

Besides - I'm sure it is not really quite the same quality. You all will find out the hard way in a few months - on ebay thsi guy has had many complaints and apparently has no customer service at all - read the complaints. Forced labour in hell-hole factories have limits to what they can do, no matter how many times their families are threatened.

Again, I agree with what you have to say. If I wasn't put in a position where a product of generally same quality was a fifth the price of another competitor, there wouldn't be an issue here and for the most part everyone would be happy. Most of the replicators in Asia have no idea how copyright or patents work because they don't leave a massive paper trail. All of these guys hock their wares on eBay and ride on decent cashflow until something happens, OR, the better option, they smarten up and use that cash to develop their own products. Gini and other Asian companies are getting innovative with their designs and will most likely threaten and compete with stuff made and designed stateside. As long as this is the case, where a real company is born from doing shady business, I'm all for it, and it looks like that's whats coming down the road for Gini.

I own his DSLR rig and its pretty much exactly built from the same billet aluminum as everyone else. Provided it's machined and designed right, there's no chance it'll be inferior to anyone elses product. Lets not forget, all of these parts are machined by milling to the exact same tolerances. The only stage where you might find poor quality is in the anodizing... depending on how they do it.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Again, I agree with what you have to say. If I wasn't put in a position where a product of generally same quality was a fifth the price of another competitor, there wouldn't be an issue here and for the most part everyone would be happy. Most of the replicators in Asia have no idea how copyright or patents work because they don't leave a massive paper trail. All of these guys hock their wares on eBay and ride on decent cashflow until something happens, OR, the better option, they smarten up and use that cash to develop their own products. Gini and other Asian companies are getting innovative with their designs and will most likely threaten and compete with stuff made and designed stateside. As long as this is the case, where a real company is born from doing shady business, I'm all for it, and it looks like that's whats coming down the road for Gini.

I own his DSLR rig and its pretty much exactly built from the same billet aluminum as everyone else. Provided it's machined and designed right, there's no chance it'll be inferior to anyone elses product. Lets not forget, all of these parts are machined by milling to the exact same tolerances. The only stage where you might find poor quality is in the anodizing... depending on how they do it.

A company born of theft will remain sleazy. I know in Asia copyright law is sometimes non existent. So what? In some other countries, women have no rights, children are sold to slavery etc. Does that make it OK? This is not China and we should not lower ourselves to their standards of business behavior - lest our children one day work in a factory for $1 an hour- here we value copyrights, and as filmmakers of all people should stand up for their value - not reward those who do not value it.

I'll say it one last time: If you support crime, you have compromised your personal integrity. You don't get it back. Once it's gone, it's gone. I feel mine is worth more than a few hundred extra $$ How much do you spend in bars a week? Tab it up. You'll be shocked if you are typical of people in this business. Stop drinking for two months, save that money, and you'll be bale to get your gear without stealing the design work and value of someone else's creativity.

As per quality, read the numerous complaint reviews on ebay. With a reputable supplier, I don't have to worry about being among the lucky ones - I know I'll get what I paid for no matter what.

 

[chris morgan]

i don't know how you copyright a few blocks of machined aluminum.

seems to me that if your product is as easy as a shoulder rig or top plate to "reverse engineer" (a term i don't even know can apply to something like this), so it goes.

some of the prices i've seen for simple utilitarian bits (from a wide gamut of manufacturers) boggle the mind. $300-$400 for a few pieces of machined metal bolted together seems like a pretty good price-performance ratio. and perhaps, indeed, the build quality won't be up to that of the RED stuff - and it most certainly doesn't look as cool.

hyundai aren't criminals for making affordable, well-built cars. and mercedes or ferrari wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they said "hey we make cars... these guys can't make cars too!"

i bought one of the gini DSLR rigs off of ebay for my 5DII a while back, and it's fantastic. i would agree that the aesthetic choices (the red hardware and overall 'zacuto' look) are a little questionable... but you can't copyright anodised bolts.

just my opinion. i go out of my way to be legit with everything i purchase - always owning plugins and software i use, etc... but i'm a pretty small-time guy. i can't afford ~$1500 for the RED cage right now, as much as i admire it.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Guys, don't you get it?

When you purchase these items, it is equivalent to the receipt of stolen property. What is stolen? The investment in R&D to start. Intellectual property. Someone's idea - and carrying that thought forward into the marketplace for you to use. Any "feel-good" justification is at the expense of anyone else that makes the personal decision to live by a high standard of ethics - setting the right example for others.

Do you allow crew members to walk away with your clients? Seems like you should not care - after all, you have already shown them that you consider bypassing professional ethics alright if you pocket the difference. When and where were you taught that personal profit justifies stealing from others?

Would you be pissed if the proposal you worked on for the past few months was suddenly green lighted - only to find out it went to one of your associates that never signed an NDA? Oh, and the investors are from a foreign country that doesn't recognize your rights... if the parallel is too hard to grasp, you will probably never get it.

And the total discount / money saved argument is just as valid as "Well, I could not afford a RED through normal channels, but I found one on Craig's List for 20% of the cost" - does that make it right? That "savings" is at the cost of someone else's investment - and loss.

There are just too many places that the argument supporting thieves falls apart -

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Some of these comments go way over the top. There are a lot of subtleties to situations like this and it is in these gray areas where the determination of legal and not legal lies. Owning a piece of equipment that you bought and paid for, even if the originator has "allegedly" committed a (probably subtle) breach of the law, does not make you a criminal - or accessory to a crime.

Personally, I think Windows was a rip-off of the Mac OS way back when, does that mean I should accuse all you Windows users of having questionable ethics? There is always a series of judgments involved in these situations. I don't fault RED for pursuing what they believe are their legitimate claims. But to demonize those of us who bought products from companies like Wooden Camera is a bit of an over reach.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

But to demonize those of us who bought products from companies like Wooden Camera is a bit of an over reach.

Terry,

To be clear - my thoughts were directed at the perpetrator named in the title of this thread: Gini - which appears to be engaging in a blatant rip-off.

Never thought for a moment that anyone would move my words over to the WC situation.
I am a happy WC customer myself (though the products I have purchased from them are not those being challenged legally).
Ryan filled a need when RDC was paying all of their attention to the backorders. I feel pained that there was no solution arrived at to avoid litigation.

But if you buy from a firm that you know is operating outside of what we would consider professional ethics and/or the law - taking advantage of some people's greed - then I feel that all of my words are appropriate, not over-the-top.

From several years of reading your posts, I feel that I know of you to fit on the professional side of that coin - so please, do not think for a moment that I was attacking the good people out there. Again, my words were not directed at WC - but to those supporting a firm that operates in the shadows instead of the light of day.

 

[Tim Morten]

Personally, I think Windows was a rip-off of the Mac OS way back when, does that mean I should accuse all you Windows users of having questionable ethics?

Historical note: MacOS itself is was a blatant rip-off of work from Xerox PARC. But I agree with your basic premise - not helpful for folks to be opining about "stolen property" without the legal background to accurately make that assessment. Probably time for a mod to shut this down...

- Tim

 

[paul ross jones]

hey guys, i really can't see why everybody is making out that this product is some kind of rip off? Its hardly a unique idea- how many ways can a top plate, a bottom plate and 4 ribs be done.
Sure, if the original had some kind of innovation you could consider it a rip off- but this is such a simple product that there isn't any other way it really can be made. As for "R&D" in a product like this- there is hardly any in something as simple as this.

seriously, would you say "wooden camera" is ripping off "view factor" (or vice-versa, I don't know who made this first). Why, when its an Asian company everyone gets up in arms about it.

paul

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Historical note: MacOS itself is was a blatant rip-off of work from Xerox PARC. But I agree with your basic premise - not helpful for folks to be opining about "stolen property" without the legal background to accurately make that assessment. Probably time for a mod to shut this down...

- Tim

Totally aware of that - I was living and working in the Palo Alto area when "the crime" was taking place.

The difference was Apple/Jobs pretty much did it with their blessing; and made it (and many PARC people) phenomenally successful. In either case, my point still stands. I am not trying to "take sides" in these issues - just trying to be careful NOT to, since I am pretty ignorant about what is happening in any of these situations.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Terry,

To be clear - my thoughts were directed at the perpetrator named in the title of this thread: Gini - which appears to be engaging in a blatant rip-off.

Never thought for a moment that anyone would move my words over to the WC situation.
I am a happy WC customer myself (though the products I have purchased from them are not those being challenged legally).
Ryan filled a need when RDC was paying all of their attention to the backorders. I feel pained that there was no solution arrived at to avoid litigation.

But if you buy from a firm that you know is operating outside of what we would consider professional ethics and/or the law - taking advantage of some people's greed - then I feel that all of my words are appropriate, not over-the-top.

From several years of reading your posts, I feel that I know of you to fit on the professional side of that coin - so please, do not think for a moment that I was attacking the good people out there. Again, my words were not directed at WC - but to those supporting a firm that operates in the shadows instead of the light of day.

Very honestly, I am not clear what the differences are between the Gini situation and the WC one. Again, not trying to takes sides one way or the other - people gotta do what they think is right. I somewhat agree with those that say the designs of these products hardly seem innovative and, thus, patentable, but I am no lawyer and I leave it to them, and the courts, to let us know.

I have a variety of rig stuff for my Scarlet, which includes WC and RED - and others, and, for me, it was a matter of comparing what would work, what was available and the relative prices. There is little doubt that RED is a very premium price (for very solid products) but WC isn't exactly bargain basement either, and the quality seems equally good. Have to let the parties involved in this work it out.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

hey guys, i really can't see why everybody is making out that this product is some kind of rip off? Its hardly a unique idea- how many ways can a top plate, a bottom plate and 4 ribs be done.
Sure, if the original had some kind of innovation you could consider it a rip off- but this is such a simple product that there isn't any other way it really can be made. As for "R&D" in a product like this- there is hardly any in something as simple as this.

seriously, would you say "wooden camera" is ripping off "view factor" (or vice-versa, I don't know who made this first). Why, when its an Asian company everyone gets up in arms about it.

paul

Paul, the rip-off is in that they're using RED trademarks (EPIC, Scarlet) in their website name (epic-scarlet.com) and I'm as sure as sure can be that they don't have RED permission to do any such thing. So they're crooks with no respect for the law, producing bits of ironmongery of dubious quality. I expect RDC lawyers to come down on them like a ton of bricks.

You can't have a patent for something like a handle (obviousness) and you can't protect a measurement - a screw thread, a dimension etc. - otherwise Koni and Tein would be out of business (they make 3rd party shock absorbers for many cars; you unbolt the Ford or Subaru item and bolt theirs on). But you can protect your especially nifty and ingenious adjustable handle *design*, and you can certainly protect the name of your product!

Mike

 

[Lee Saxon]

The confusing part of this to me is that Wooden Camera's cage seems to be just as blatant a rip-off of the FMJ as Gini's, but no one is complaining about that.