Gimbal vs Steadicam Or Both?

[James Peach]

I see some talking about both Gimbal's and Steadicam's then some one pops up talking about both.

How about a thread about them.

So what is good and bad about all Steadicam's
And same about the hand held gimbal's

Lot's of Gimbals are popping up. So now movi is not the only one in the game now.
Not saying thats bad.

But who likes buying some thing and finding out it was bad or did not work for them.
Like the days when there was no way to here a CD b4 it came out. You pay for it and only one song was good if one at all (dam marketing).


Well my question about steadicam's are would it be best to go to 1-2 day class to see what its like first or just do the week.
Or get a low price unit first. then how low should we go as if we are using a red epic.
came, laing, wondlan
varizoom, glidecam, Proline
The china ones can be 700-2000 then others 2800-12k+ then glidecam & tiffen steadicam 8K-40K+

Now with 3 axis gimbals
Most come from the octocopters and quadcopters now to handheld.
The part that I see most complain about is the price.
One that is know the most is Freefly Movi.
Now... Monkey Gimbal, FlyCam, Maxicopter, DEFY, BeSteady... and more but more diy

With the gimbals I dont even know what to start with lol.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

In a few words. there are pros and cons in both devices.
Generally a good steadicam device and a good operator with all needed accessories and gear can achieve 95% of the shots, and most importantly with ANY camera load, and ANY lens configuration, and with any accessories. There are however shots that are hard to pull, and need different methods, or combination of equipment, like Seqway, Allen revolution,cranes,etc

On the other hand. Gyrostabilized gimbals can pull 60-70% of the shots that a steadicam can, but they are limited in, control, endurance, camera load, camera lens, accessories, and most importantly, since they have so many electronic parts that are exposed , can be damaged any time , something that can screw up the general shoot easily.

In general. Being doing steadicam for a dozen of years, and also having a gyro head for aerial shooting in the past, I wil say that both devices can do a fair amount of shoots, and some shoots that one can achieve the other cannot do but on the other hand , steadicam is winning over the gyroheads on this, working as a general more professional tool, and can and have proved over all kind of pro Hollywood films, doing what ever is required.

You also have to understand that those gyroheads are just for that very exceptional shot that can be done to easy up things, but it cannot in any way please the demands of a director, and its very limited in what lenses and gear can be used with it , so Dops will have to put up with just one way of doing something. Forget long lenses either.

As about cheap Chinese steadicams and decent steadicam equipment question.

First of all there is only a bunch of pro steadicam operators in this forum, and many epic and Scarlet owners that want to jump into steadicam , just because tghey want to have this extra tool, for their own productions, on the other hand they seem to know nothing about steadicam , and all they seek is a tool as cheap as possible. I have tried many times to explain this with no luck so I finally gave up, because people just don't get it as easily. The trooth is that even if its trooth that choises are more and prices have gone down, a good professional steadicam device, like Tiffen Steadicam, Pro-Gpi, Baer-bel, Mk-v, Action Products, XCS, is nowhere close to all those cheap Chinese clones, which are made in hundrends of numbers, with out even understanding the basic nature and mechanics of steadicam work and operation. So yes they work up to a degree, and yes they can pull the occasional shot but there is no way the can stand side by side with a pro tool.

Also people don't understand that most of the steadicam art is not the tool, but the profession. That means that a ggod operator will always pull a good shot no matter what the equipment is, but he might have to brake his back to do this, if the equipment has defects, or is not ergonomic, on the other hand, a bad operator will not be able to pull a decent shot even if you give him the best of the gear to work with. So like all other things in cinematography, you have to have good tools and you have to be good. Take that as a measure.

The gyro rc stykle gimbals are around since the 90s , they have improved over in electronics, but they are nowhere close to real professional gyroheads , they can just produce a fair amount of shots, and they are nothing else other than a copy of the Filmotechnic 3 axis head called flighthead, made in clones, using the exact method , copying each other, and getting cheaper and cheaper. Unfortunatly they do lack in many things, and some of those factors will not be overcome this way.

I cant see why people shouldn't buy them, since they do make exciting shots, but I cannot understand the expensive prices, and its something very easy to make for the average RC builder,people have actually start realizing this , and now more and more are popping out in 1/8 of the price of a Movi doping the same job, and there is still space for cheaper prices. I have said that in the very beginning, and now after a few months I was proved correct for one more time.



best regards

 

[James Peach]

In a few words. there are pros and cons in both devices.
Generally a good steadicam device and a good operator with all needed accessories and gear can achieve 95% of the shots, and most importantly with ANY camera load, and ANY lens configuration, and with any accessories. There are however shots that are hard to pull, and need different methods, or combination of equipment, like Seqway, Allen revolution,cranes,etc

On the other hand. Gyrostabilized gimbals can pull 60-70% of the shots that a steadicam can, but they are limited in, control, endurance, camera load, camera lens, accessories, and most importantly, since they have so many electronic parts that are exposed , can be damaged any time , something that can screw up the general shoot easily.

In general. Being doing steadicam for a dozen of years, and also having a gyro head for aerial shooting in the past, I wil say that both devices can do a fair amount of shoots, and some shoots that one can achieve the other cannot do but on the other hand , steadicam is winning over the gyroheads on this, working as a general more professional tool, and can and have proved over all kind of pro Hollywood films, doing what ever is required.

You also have to understand that those gyroheads are just for that very exceptional shot that can be done to easy up things, but it cannot in any way please the demands of a director, and its very limited in what lenses and gear can be used with it , so Dops will have to put up with just one way of doing something. Forget long lenses either.

As about cheap Chinese steadicams and decent steadicam equipment question.

First of all there is only a bunch of pro steadicam operators in this forum, and many epic and Scarlet owners that want to jump into steadicam , just because tghey want to have this extra tool, for their own productions, on the other hand they seem to know nothing about steadicam , and all they seek is a tool as cheap as possible. I have tried many times to explain this with no luck so I finally gave up, because people just don't get it as easily. The trooth is that even if its trooth that choises are more and prices have gone down, a good professional steadicam device, like Tiffen Steadicam, Pro-Gpi, Baer-bel, Mk-v, Action Products, XCS, is nowhere close to all those cheap Chinese clones, which are made in hundrends of numbers, with out even understanding the basic nature and mechanics of steadicam work and operation. So yes they work up to a degree, and yes they can pull the occasional shot but there is no way the can stand side by side with a pro tool.

Also people don't understand that most of the steadicam art is not the tool, but the profession. That means that a ggod operator will always pull a good shot no matter what the equipment is, but he might have to brake his back to do this, if the equipment has defects, or is not ergonomic, on the other hand, a bad operator will not be able to pull a decent shot even if you give him the best of the gear to work with. So like all other things in cinematography, you have to have good tools and you have to be good. Take that as a measure.

The gyro rc stykle gimbals are around since the 90s , they have improved over in electronics, but they are nowhere close to real professional gyroheads , they can just produce a fair amount of shots, and they are nothing else other than a copy of the Filmotechnic 3 axis head called flighthead, made in clones, using the exact method , copying each other, and getting cheaper and cheaper. Unfortunatly they do lack in many things, and some of those factors will not be overcome this way.

I cant see why people shouldn't buy them, since they do make exciting shots, but I cannot understand the expensive prices, and its something very easy to make for the average RC builder,people have actually start realizing this , and now more and more are popping out in 1/8 of the price of a Movi doping the same job, and there is still space for cheaper prices. I have said that in the very beginning, and now after a few months I was proved correct for one more time.



best regards

Thanks for your input!

What do you think of ProLine steadicam?

And for the ones that want to know whats it about b4 just investing a lot of $.
What would be the best first step?

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

I have never used it, from the looks of it, it looked quite decent, using a 3a style arm which is proven to work over more than 30+ YEARS very well.
I cannot comment about accurancy of gimbal which is a very important factor, but last time I have checked it looked like a decent system.
David Kellerman probably knows more about it.
One system that is remarkably good value for what it is is the new Raptor, and Iam sure its one of the best choices you can ever make if you go steadicam direction.
On the other hand if you want to get a gyro head handheld gimbal, you can try hook up an rc enthusiaric and make one your self, it wouldn't cost you more than a couple of thousand, and there are plenty of boards and software to use,as well as rc ddr BRUSHLESS motors.
I know its very easy and possible.
regards

 

[ericyoung]

Do a reputable course (even a short one) with proper professional level Steadicam or equivalent rigs. This will give you some idea of what a real pro rig feels like and what it can and can't do. You'll then have some reference to gauge the quality of any cheaper solutions you try out.

 

[Chad Bonanno]

wow I am pretty amazed this market is almost saturated already before the MOVi is even available to the public! I cant wait to try some of these out, although I am only interested in systems that can support more than 12lbs.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

constantine is right on the money. I have been fortunate to witness really good steadicam operators over the years. The nice gear helps but it was how they work that gear with precision, anticipating action perfectly, all the nuances, it's quite amazing. I would have loved to learn how to operate one but that window of opportunity has come and gone. My body is not up for the challenge at this point. So if the needs arises I would only hire people I know are really good at it, otherwise there may be a lot of wasted time on set.

I certainly don't disparage anyone for trying. I would just caution about the approach of buying expensive stuff before getting the proper training. Get the training first for sure.

One thing I have begun to look into are stabilization systems for small camera setups such as a GH2 or a BM Pocket camera. those cams are difficult to handhold because of RS and micro shakes. So when using those cameras I would like to find something that helps solve this issue while on set. And it has to be small to fit the formfactor and keep with the spirit of shooting with micro sized cameras.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Hey as much as extreme it sounds in the beginning of my steadicam venture, I spent almost 2 years before I was able to cover 70-80% of the shots that I was seeing from experienced ops.then as I was changing rigs, I couldn't improve my technics more than that and the progress was very slow. Just about everything could work , or not work out on real life shots, and also difficult directors, not knowing exactly what they wanted and how this could be done , can really make your life hard, and that's the difference in between doing trials at your garden, and work in real life with real people. You have to be an individual that exept of tones of patience you need to be communicative, and be also good in politics since you always have to find a way to explain why you should do this or the other shot in a certain way with out insulting the average director who he either don't know hoe to do the shot, or just has a bad day.
Carrying 25-45 kg on your body can really drive you on the edges sometimes when people just don't understand your craft, but its you who you always have to compromise and how ever deliver.
Now thinking back all stories were quite funny but at the time I was feeling very distressed and even angry sometimes.
I did all kind of stands with a steadicam, even snowboarding , though I have ended up breaking a couple of ribs hahaha.
Its a very exiting craft and very rewarding , and though even after 15 years I gave up doing this, I am sure I was never reached not even 85% of what you can do with it.
Its also very relative to your body structure. I am 67 kg and sometimes I was carrying a full rig loaded at 45 kg , so that means that though my slow moves weren't as good, due to the fact that I was very fast and small, I could run like a rabbit, and go thru tide spaces, something that other big heavy ops couldn't do.
So body structure and certain abilities sometimes make you good at some things but not good at other things.

Those new gyroheads can really make you very tired since endurance is very limited, and the way they are designed to be hold and work is not exactly anything comfortable , so it can be a strangle depending on the shot.

Regards