Getting a patent?

[Wayne Morellini]

Lol! It doesn't take much to figure out if you auto deny patents then you disquade investment in development there of. Which is kind of the only point in it here.

There was research into this area in the mid last century. I don't regard science as not sloppy, which is a good way not to find something. It was closed down before more modern technique, as are many advanced propulsion technologies,including the ones we know will work oddly enough. This has happened a few times. But to the novice just gecsuse something doesn't exist, or somebody tells them it doesn't exist, they think it doesn't. Bad misinformation is only as good as the listener. Either garbage in garbage out, or I'll keep my garbage thank you.

So, the answer is the pursuit of reasonable truth in research. What more I cannot say. But one of my friends was a foreign counterpart and personal friend to a person that wrote about various things he had seen in his job. I don't know what is up completely, but they are certainly demonstrating different technologies to this. So yes, it is likely up and running, but how good it is is another thing. It could well be minimal of little significance until they find a better solution. From my own research it's definitely possible, and even a lot beyond.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Andree. Scientists have now determined that hot drinks increase throat cancer. It is said that 65 degrees is the safe temperature.

Unfortunately for you I was right on both accounts. A notion lacks completeness, a concept maybe a flash in time lacking working out.

If you understood you would know that worked out ideas are the root of value and indeed the value. As for the fantasy of so many thinkers. The reality is that so many can't fouch, and as far as working out an idea are very bad. So, we are surrounded by people with maybe a notion but no real ability in notion, some with a concept but no real ability in concepts, in order to string together a complete worked out idea. Many just don't have much most of the time. Far bleaker. Even those with a notion, have to get somebody with an idea to do it, with a concept to work it out. It is much rarer for somebody to have the idea in hand such that somebody else with technical ability but no talent in ideas, could implement it, and for it to be good. Look at Todd's description of a patent, and see the similarities. I've been decades, even on some unbelievable things, and know there is a real difference. A motion shows intent, a concept form, but a real idea shows how it works.

Now, for those that want to open a trendy top earning icecream restaurant that serves waffer thin icecream made by a ice cream turn table sprayed with liquid nitrogen, I bid you good night. For my brain likes the notion of sleep in a bed after I hop into it and close my eyes.
(Re-edit:. It seems the simplified examples of the differences between notion, concept and workable idea here, got missed).

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Wayne.

To my eyes, you're writing gibberish. Since I had no intention of derailing the thread, I'll be happy to "pick up the tab" on this one. We can summarise it as such: we disagree on most accounts and it's my feeble brain's fault.

I do wish you, sincerely, a good night's sleep.

 

[Eric Lange]

103 rejections are currently the bane of my existence. I'm constantly having to appeal rejections under 103 because the examiners clearly pick and choose from the prior art using keyword searches and clear hindsight (which is impermissible), adopt a broader-than-reasonable interpretation of the prior art, try to use their own common knowledge based on hindsight instead of cite facts or what is actually taught in the references they rely upon for the rejection, blatantly mischaracterize the prior art references, combine references that have no business being combined while ignoring my arguments that combing would lead to an inoperable product, etc etc etc. There's poor oversight and poor training of examiners, and examiners often stick to garbage rejections to churn cases and get their count (they're evaluated on an odd count system that heavily disfavors the inventors). It's not terribly fun explaining to foreign inventors or foreign associates let alone alone US-based inventors and practitioners that BS 103 rejections are being maintained unreasonably in view of what-should-be-slam-dunk arguments and evidence provided against them, and we'll have to appeal because it's not worth amending the claims further or doing a request for continued examination. I recently had to appeal a case, for example, where the inventor told me he couldn't provide any useful feedback regarding the office action because the rejections were so nonsensical to one of skill in the art (stem cell transplantation, which was also the subject of my doctoral thesis). 103 rejections currently make my job much harder than it should be and I lose more sleep over 103 rejections than I should. I've been told it's an occupational hazard and I need to develop a thicker skin....

I have had very similar experiences with US examiners, for sure. Unfortunately you can't go "I respectfully submit that the examiner does not know his arse from a hole in the ground". The European examiners I have found to be more even handed, neutral and cautious and even "reasonable'... The Japanese examiners we had were great as they cited no prior art and actually suggested slightly better wording of the claims than any of our other applications. They really actually understood the invention and were (as I'm told) were very impressed and wanted to get behind the invention. I think they understood the underlying mathematics and new concepts as they had a much stronger and rigorous background in my field of application. They really knew their "Onions".

I recently had to appeal a case, for example, where the inventor told me he couldn't provide any useful feedback regarding the office action because the rejections were so nonsensical to one of skill in the art (stem cell transplantation, which was also the subject of my doctoral thesis). 103 rejections currently make my job much harder than it should be and I lose more sleep over 103 rejections than I should. I've been told it's an occupational hazard and I need to develop a thicker skin.....

I had to learn to "chill" and not take these personally, once I started getting our patents to grant I didn't take such moronic objections personally.

It is odd with a US examiner that clearly doesn't understand the general or broader field of application and kinda develops a bit of passive aggressive streak. So there is a bit of weird psychology that can underpin such transactions. You mention confabulated hindsight driven non-sensical (sp) combinations... And to successfully get around those sometimes its better (perhaps) to partially indulge the examiner as a set of near misses or far misses in terms of combinations rather pushing back strongly on the examiners moronic arguments. It's more of a diversionary "kung fu" style tactic where the weight and energy of the examiners arguments just pass through or are deflected in a tangential way. It's a little odd as it requires a bit of creativity and imagination to indulge the examiner to almost imply the combination is almost reasonable (where as in fact its completely insane) where you basically have to "counter confabulate" the suggested combination... Like if you combine the cited teachings of document one with claims from document 2 with diagrams from document 3, you end up with interesting and bizarre result that is the exact opposite of the teachings and benefits of the current application. It's just nuts (as you know @ Todd C.D.)

I agree it is a total PITA when an examiner cites five documents to try and confabulate your invention... That's where you do have to call Bull Sh*t... [The examiner is deliberately creating the "Gordian Knot" simply because he has got a bit of an "Attitude" about the wording of the claims]. Five documents where no combinations are taught is pretty much the definition of non-obviousness. Even arguments like, If it was so obvious then why didn't someone do this before... Given how (freaking) useful to all these application areas the invention is (still fall flat with a US examiner). Unfortunately (in such cases) I have had to stick to legal arguments rather than technical and conceptual ones in such a case where you have an examiner that clearly does not understand the technical area and has no practical experience of such things. Having an "Ignorant" yet passive aggressive yet bizarrely creative examiner can indeed create a hellatious (sp) amount of paperwork.

I had one examiner cite a patent document where the inventor in that particular case didn't understand how the technology worked (that he was claiming for), and clearly had not performed the invention himself and of course the examiner didn't understand that either. So one has to tread fairly carefully when you are accusing the examiner and the inventor (in a citation) of "Smoking Crack"!

103 rejections currently make my job much harder than it should be and I lose more sleep over 103 rejections than I should. I've been told it's an occupational hazard and I need to develop a thicker skin...

^^^ Well it seems your clients are lucky to have you that you would be that conscientious, and I do honestly believe it does take a bit of flair, style and imagination to counter such bizarre and non-sensical(sp) arguments from the examiner ... Requires tremendous skill and temperance (I think) to not come across as being very patronizing and sarcastic when you are trying to explain the out come of such "Suggested" combinations. It really is another universe or alternate reality.

I have to admit my US patent attorney was not very helpful at all with busting 103 type objections (but otherwise pretty helpful), and my UK patent associates that I used as a hub for all my other "foreign" territories were really out of their depth on a lot of things... So had to figure out how to close those gaps myself as I am the one that is ultimately responsible.

What gets me is not just the key word googling of random key phrases (that examiners make (as you mention Todd)), but also diagrams... They flip through a bunch of stuff that might look in a superficial way similar to what some of my diagrams might be in our applications... It's beyond stupid and lazy. But if they are not super well trained and they are under pressure and major time constraints and it's about quantity rather than quality (as you mention TCD), then that's what happens.

rejections were so nonsensical to one of skill in the art (stem cell transplantation, which was also the subject of my doctoral thesis).

That's really cool that you have Ph.D in the Bio sciences... Stem cells just super hot topic... I think H Dewey and I had some interesting discussions related to testing on Equines... (The horses being one of my favorite passions for three nearly four decades) I'm assuming the biomedical stem-cells rather than the "Electronic ones" ;-)


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I'm really interested in the LEIA tech applications and HYDROGEN but these displays would work really well for dissecting microscopes as well as other 3d based scopes even (con-focal microscopy) and electron (bench top microscopes too)and similar.

@Todd C. D. Did you pre-order a HYDROGEN by any chance?


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Cheers,

Eric

_Apologies for randomness, redundancy and lack of proper clear headed editing! I'm still 4 espressos behind my usual dose

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Wayne.

To my eyes, you're writing gibberish. Since I had no intention of derailing the thread, I'll be happy to "pick up the tab" on this one. We can summarise it as such: we disagree on most accounts and it's my feeble brain's fault.

I do wish you, sincerely, a good night's sleep.

You guys always want to get off easy in your literal presidential style. To my mind, gibberish thinking is not being able to sufficiently seperate, categorise and stratify things with the nuance and complexity that reflects life; and it is not the ability to express such things.

 

[Eric Lange]

<Snip>

@Eric Lange: knives are sharp: be careful not to cut yourself. Ice is slippery: be careful not to fall. The correct temperature of coffee is very close to water's boiling temperature: please take care not to burn yourself. And human beings simply cannot fly unassisted—regardless of the color of your leotard.

When you have an accident the correct response is making a mental note: "the next time I'll be more careful". It's not "let's hire a lawyer and sue someone else".

I'm not trying to argue how the world works, because it seems obvious that it doesn't.

He, he, he,


I know exactly where you were coming from in the first instance.

@Andre M you live in Switzerland... I had very good friend who lives there (in Bern) and I was incredibly impressed at how sensible the Swiss really are! I always use the Swiss as an argument for how a population doing national service has a lot of assault rifles per capita but extremely low gun violence.

I have also lived in SW France... And the French are very different (in a good way)... If you do something stupid and you do not heed the posted or labelled warnings and you injure yourself or someone gets killed as a result, then that's YOUR fault... Natural selection at work. The one thing I liked about living in France is that I could buy super dangerous and toxic chemicals over the counter that would never be allowed in other countries... I'm sure after European unification that a lot of that has changed since the late 90's.

On the other hand I have spent time in countries like Vietnam and you begin to realize what it is like to have a somewhat totalitarian government that can be rather corrupt and that the common man or woman has virtually zero legal representation at all.

That's when you start to appreciate at least some of the American system of law. And BE grateful for it. Better to be suing Mc Donald's than having zero representation for anything. Of course Jose Bovay (sp) in France launched a great campaign against Mc Donald's for "peasants/ Countrymen against disgusting food!"... And even though he kinda rioted and physically trashed certain McDonalds the European courts let him off / ruled in his favor.

In the U.K. things can get a little dark especially if you work in deep government applications and you get sick or liver cancer ofrother illnesses triggered by work place toxicity, then the U.K. government can play the "Crown Immunity" card where there is no recourse... That's a real bitch.

The case of the kid (I'm guessing of diminished capacity/responsibility) that killed himself by trying to fly in a cape is and was really tragic... Very very sad; but I don't know the details of the pursuant legal cases.

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Key patents in highly competitive areas are difficult to obtain and is really not for the faint of heart and in some cases one better be prepared to have an adequate "War Chest" and really bring it in some cases. Patents are a bit of car crash at best as it's a fusion of technical and legal concepts and constructs.

But if you want to protect your work or license the technology to other areas of industry that you yourself cannot reach then that provides a useful and fair mechanism. [As far as anyone has been able to devise as imperfect as it is].

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

You guys always want to get off easy…

Not at all. But one man's "opera-stage-in-the-spotlight-perferming-an-aria-moment" is another man's forum clutter.

Maybe I used gibberish for effect. A more accurate word would have been incoherent.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

He, he, he, I know exactly where you were coming from…

The case of the kid…

I'm not sure I know of an actual case with a kid like that, but I've seen the disclaiming warning texts on costumes like that. One would think such texts ought to be dispensable.

Regardless of that, of course I'm not making jokes on behalf of seriously hurt people. But one would hope that if you rush to the ER with two fingers cut off by heavy working equipment, the doctor won't make you choose between thumb and index finger, because your insurance only covers one of them...

Anyway. You mentioned guns?

 

[Eric Lange]

I'm not sure I know of an actual case with a kid like that, but I've seen the disclaiming warning texts on costumes like that. One would think such texts ought to be dispensable.

Regardless of that, of course I'm not making jokes on behalf of seriously hurt people. But one would hope that if you rush to the ER with two fingers cut off by heavy working equipment, the doctor won't make you choose between thumb and index finger, because your insurance only covers one of them...

Anyway. You mentioned guns?

OT

Ish .

I was kicked out of the healthcare system for seven years until Affordable care act/ 'Obama" care came along. Uninsurable because of a future correlation with migraines and possibility of future stroke. Even though I'm fit and go to the gym an all that. I had a shattered wrist from a horse accident and could not afford at the time to take the titanium plate out and screws... So almost decade later these screws severed a critical tendon to my thumb (right hand/Right handed) and were partially severing other tendons... Expensive mess and a new 9" cadaverd tendon from a dead person that I have no idea where said body part came from... It was like a Dr Strange scenario where I couldn't even sign my own name properly, as a designer not being able to draw properly is really daunting/ handicap... And that also pushed me to 5 axis machining processes as well. Thankfully after about 18 months I can draw an all that and not drop things.

The American Healthcare "Thing" is a humungous train wreck... Germany and France have this much better figured out.
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So I think the patent system has worked much better for me than US Healthcare. If that's any "Metric" to go by lol. Sad.

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What are we talking about... How to get a patent lol, and whether one should do so in the first place.


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Interesting that Patents and notional IP goes back hundreds of years if not millennia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_patent_law

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Not at all. But one man's "opera-stage-in-the-spotlight-perferming-an-aria-moment" is another man's forum clutter.

Maybe I used gibberish for effect. A more accurate word would have been incoherent.

Then stop singing, it's a coherent sermon. The answer is sort in, sort out.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Then stop singing…

Contact me via PM and let's discuss there. Personal stuff is of no interest to the thread.

 

[Eric Lange]

Contact me via PM and let's discuss there. Personal stuff is of no interest to the thread.

Personally I think "Mud slinging" should be done in public as PM "Channel" can be open to abuse and abusive tactics...

Also not being a drama queen... But sometimes these things add a bit of spice/can be funny.

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Patents and IP are not easy and successful utility of such patents much more difficult. Depends entirely what one has invented.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Personally I think "Mud slinging" should be done in public as PM "Channel" can be open to abuse and abusive tactics...

I don't think mud slinging belongs anywhere. Especially not in a forum where it gets saved for the afterworld. As a matter of fact, too often forums seem to be mistaken for chat rooms where people express momentary feelings. Reduser.net is probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to "me too!", "ride on!" and "woo-hoo!" posts. Sometimes page after page when something is announced.

Anyway, when an argument is revolving around facts, it will only take so long until it hits a dead end. But once an argument is based on subjective feelings and starts to get personal, there is really no certain way to say how it ends. And to just call someone out to the point where you're supposed to list their shortcomings... I don't see the point. I don't think that's the reason most of us registered here. And perhaps the biggest problem: it really doesn't take much—half a brain per participant is enough—to turn a few posts of mudslinging into a perpetual dance: arguing via forum posts is like dodging bullets 'Matrix style'. You see what's coming a mile away and it's almost impossible to paint yourself into a corner.

 

[Eric Lange]

I don't think mud slinging belongs anywhere. Especially not in a forum where it gets saved for the afterworld. As a matter of fact, too often forums seem to be mistaken for chat rooms where people express momentary feelings. Reduser.net is probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to "me too!", "ride on!" and "woo-hoo!" posts. Sometimes page after page when something is announced.

Anyway, when an argument is revolving around facts, it will only take so long until it hits a dead end. But once an argument is based on subjective feelings and starts to get personal, there is really no certain way to say how it ends. And to just call someone out to the point where you're supposed to list their shortcomings... I don't see the point. I don't think that's the reason most of us registered here. And perhaps the biggest problem: it really doesn't take much—half a brain per participant is enough—to turn a few posts of mudslinging into a perpetual dance: arguing via forum posts is like dodging bullets 'Matrix style'. You see what's coming a mile away and it's almost impossible to paint yourself into a corner.

My approach is if someone is minded to pointlessly "Argue" the hind leg off a Donkey, there's no point in trying to dis-abuse someone of their "Need" to be "right"... lol.

I actually wasn't going to engage in what you posted until H Dewey chimed in...

Personally I think your attitude is really interesting/perspective.

I'm just pushing back on your 'Tone" about patents being kinda easy to get and with Amerikansky type ambulance chasing lawyers that patents are a license to print money.

Doen't work like that.

Fundamentally very few people understand what 'Risk" really means until you run your own business that relys on innovation and developing in house new technologies.

I am fundamentally originally from Europe and I understand your skepticism and all the usual things that Europeans roll their eyes (about) regarding their (US "Cousins" across the pond) but in this instance I thought I would take a bit of time out to push back (gently) on one or two pre-conceived ideas that most more cynical/ critically minded Europeans might be given to harbor

I certainly don't take anything you have written personally in the slightest.

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BTW I don't think Wayne's 'Pea brained" comment was aimed at you actually ... Here on REDUSER we tend to cross the "Streams a bit" I wonder actually if Wayne was not referring to another set of threads all together

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Interesting distinction between "Chat" room and Forum VS TMI...

From my perspective most people buy things based on an emotional decision and then find the so called "logical" rationalizations afterwards to justify the purchase or want transferred into "logical" need.


@AndreeMarkefors your English excellent, my German and French is a bit dodgy by comparison.

 

[H Dewey]

In re: registering a patent, potential new approach.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/...rol-of-patents-and-intellectual-property.html

And this from Elon Musk in re: patents.

In 2012, Elon Musk said SpaceX did not have any interest in holding patents.A “We have essentially no patents in SpaceX,” Musk told Wired . “Our primary long-term competition is in China-if we published patents, it would be farcical, because the Chinese would just use them as a recipe book.”

 

[Eric Lange]

In re: registering a patent, potential new approach.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/...rol-of-patents-and-intellectual-property.html

And this from Elon Musk in re: patents.

In 2012, Elon Musk said SpaceX did not have any interest in holding patents.A “We have essentially no patents in SpaceX,” Musk told Wired . “Our primary long-term competition is in China-if we published patents, it would be farcical, because the Chinese would just use them as a recipe book.”

I need to be fairly diplomatic here as I would very much like to get our tech on SpaceX's shop floor... I believe we can add real value there to what SpaceX aims to accomplish. SpaceX is not far from RED Studios (cough cough).


I'm pretty sure Elon is as much of Space History "Buff" and history of Astronautical engineering as I am; if not more so.

So there is a precedent for that in the history of Rocketry that Mr Musk would have been completely aware of. When Dr. Werner Von Braun (head of the Peenemunde V2 rocket group) had arranged via various contacts to be captured by the Americans in the correct "Zone" at the closing stages of WWII, there was this quasi apocryphal story that while the German Rocket scientists were taken to White Sands New Mexico to twiddle their thumbs for the better part of a decade... That some of the German Rocket scientists when prompted by various US generals where did they get the ideas to do all this, the reply was something to effect of "Well we got our start from everything we read in the patent literature as published by YOUR famous American rocket scientist Robert Goddard..., but for some reason it appears your US government and military chose to ignore most of his work... We on the other hand did not!". [Robert Goddard did a lot of pioneering rocketry in the USA especially during the 1920 and 1930s].

I had heard that a lot of the captured German Rocket scientists and high level engineers being kept in a compound in White Sands New Mexico (Famous Faustian C20th bargains not withstanding) for the larger fraction of a decade went a little doo-laly, some drank very heavily or just would pass the time pulling some very funny yet childish pranks. They got to do some research but you can only take such things so far theoretically without building and really testing stuff (which they were not given the resources to do); they were going pretty nuts by that point. The US military only started to really take this captured group of German scientists seriously when the Russians launched Sputnik. Cold War nuclear paranoia and politics was close to its height... Driving the American public also insane with this small shinny metal moon you could tune into on your radio going "Beep, beep, beep, beep , beep, beep" as it flew over ahead. When Von Braun operating out of the AMBA (Army ballistic missile agency and Redstone arsenal) were finally able to launch Explorer 1 The first US satellite mounted on top of a Redstone missile, it is reported (or at least my father told me) that Von Braun had 11 bloody Mary's that day and was so happy and completely plastered! As the pressure to get any kind of useful payload in orbit was immense. At some point later the civilian organization NASA was formed. [Need to check stuff but that's what lodged in my cobwebs between my ears.].


Had Robbert Goddard the American Rocket pioneer of liquid propellant controllable propulsions systems not published his work in the patent literature, then possibly the Germans might have been a decade behind where they got to... And If the Americans had taken Robert Goddard's work seriously they would be ahead of the Russians by nearly 20 years. However if that was the case then the proposal to put a man on the Moon (Kenedy's famous speech) as we were losing to the Russians (in manned spaceflight/space race at that point) may never have been made and the need for such a lofty goal may never have happened. In other words had Goddard not published / filed his patents then it is entirely possible 'Man" would not have planned a series of missions to land on the Moon, The US would have more advanced ICBMs and that would be that probably; no moon missions until much much later if at all... Maybe today we would still be waiting to put a man or woman on the Moon.

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A lot of Elon Musk's initial work was to take literally stuff you can find in Astronautical Engineering textbooks from the late 1950's to late 1960's and apply a very clever business model to known technology. Something that NASA does not do. There was a 60 minutes documentary that really was trying to sh*t can the work of Space X and Elon Musk, and even featuring famous Astronauts like Neil Armstrong kinda being d*cks testifying in congress that people like Elon Musk have no business being in the "Space Business" and should be left to NASA, especially when it comes to Manned exploration of Space. A real F'ing hatchet job in my opinion. The later navigation technology and integration and especially software and control that Elon Musk has brought to bear these past few years is absolutely miraculous and waaaaaay ahead of anyone else. The idea you can land a re-usable space carrier vehicle / first stage of a rocket using waffle vanes and retro rockets to land up right on a 2 meter square target is beyond miraculous. Very much in line with my own design philosophy ... Best of old school and best of new school wrapped into a business model that makes sense as a contiguous design. However, Elon Musk has done incredible and incredibly unlikely things successfully like the successful launch of his heavy lift launch vehicle BFR... Best of old school and new school taken to the max and way way beyond! And he also parked a TESLA in orbit on its way... a small fraction of the payload capability for the BFR. You can guess for yourself what BFR stands for, there's no wrong answer lol !


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As far as Chinese IP, interesting that MUSK more recently gave a bunch of patents to the Chinese for TESLA I believe. Elon Musk is right that China and commercial launch vehicles are head to head in competition. Not sure about direct conflicts with the Chinese Manned space program... But not for nothing Elon is also in competition with the ULA (United Launch Alliance) here back at home in the good old US of A.

Elon does not need to license his technologies for the most part.

The situation with IP in China may be changing a bit and ALSO very importantly there is new and useful research being carried out in China itself... It used to be in the past that not even Microsoft could enforce it's IP in China but things may be slowly changing and also may depend on who you partner with in for example in Taiwan and by extension PRC.

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As far as IP design patents versus utility patents and Blockchain... Need to sleep on that/ ruminate.

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Just grabbing some fun/useful refs will add...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorer_1

https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/whyweexplore/Why_We_29.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Goddard

https://history.msfc.nasa.gov/goddard/pats.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=EZhYzow5W9U
^^Footage of German Rocket scientists / engineers working in White Sands new Mexico. Dead fottage at last 1 minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOhWhOh8n-g
^^^ Cameras being loaded into V2 at White Sands New Mexico.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOMH0RWdKPk
^^^
Colonel Turner and Dr Wernher Von Braun inspect German V 2 Rocket at White sands ...HD Stock Footage (you get the idea)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS8xW_uOM7U
Von Braun speaking as to what he thinks the Russians are getting up to, or at least seem to be getting up to something! (worth watching)/interesting. The conclusion is hysterical not historical or actually both (very funny).
Patents?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7SY-1EufcM
^^^Some space ideas are very old yet very advanced ... A problem for Patents too I'm sure Elon Musk is 100% aware of hi space history, VB talking about nuclear propulsion while showing off a model of the early Saturn V. And needs for a station on the Moon (1962 film clip). There's a very good chance it will be the Chinese that actually carry this out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YjnlKkdP9w
^^^Saturn V funding approved... (Seems ELON has figured out how to go it alone but being ahead requires internal secrecy +NEW know how for his particular systems).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=TKbDd2SbJeo
^^Kenedy's speech to "Beep beep beep"... to Sputnik1 (kinda impressive/ funny) to the development of Saturn V launch vehicle that took men to the Moon and the 400 thousand men and women, that helped make that happen !


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http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-patents-2012-11

https://sofrep.com/101354/elon-musk-just-granted-largest-compensation-deal-in-history/
^^Not sure on the validity of that but those that like EBITDA type calculations and milestones might be interested in checking their (reported) "Math".

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Random ... "The Big Picture" and "Explorer 1" historic footage... Only for hardcore history of tech and military "buffs" lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffjcQASp8Kg

It's pretty funny though... "OK Wernner you have 90 days... Lets get to it"... (hmmm what about the nearly ten years kicking cans around in the New Mexican desert?).

 

[Wayne Morellini]

My approach is if someone is minded to pointlessly "Argue" the hind leg off a Donkey, there's no point in trying to dis-abuse someone of their "Need" to be "right"... lol.

.. 'Pea brained" comment ..

From my perspective most people buy things based on an emotional decision and then find the so called "logical" rationalizations afterwards to justify the purchase or want transferred into "logical" need

Yes, I come across this MY product IS GREAT & RIGHT, THEREFORE IAM GREAT a lot. Just leave out all the non capitals, and replace product with a capital comment. They will argue the hind leg off a donkey just to prove how wrong is right. To me I just see somebody wrong. What's the point of arguing wrong. I try to be right before I say something, and that takes A LOT of figuring out. Suppose I'm like Bill Gates, who would argue with his development team members until they would justify their point. If I start pausing longer and longer between my posts, it means something is drastically wrong with the discussion (which is most arguers who will just do anything to stretch things out wasting tens of my hours, while I nobly stick up for reason, logic, truth, fairness, justice and liberty, and the non smericsnnwsy). I get sick of people not thinking through things and slinging it at me. I'm more interested in the truth, even if I describe it they still do it. Would they do that against a genius like Donald Trump, then why would they do it to me . Anyway, back to American High culture Idiot Sitter.

Pea brained comment, am I missing something?

I don't think mud slinging belongs anywhere. Especially not in a forum where it gets saved for the afterworld. As a matter of fact, too often forums seem to be mistaken for chat rooms where people express momentary feelings. Reduser.net is probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to "me too!", "ride on!" and "woo-hoo!" posts. Sometimes page after page when something is announced.

Anyway, when an argument is revolving around facts, it will only take so long until it hits a dead end. But once an argument is based on subjective feelings and starts to get personal, there is really no certain way to say how it ends. And to just call someone out to the point where you're supposed to list their shortcomings... I don't see the point. I don't think that's the reason most of us registered here. And perhaps the biggest problem: it really doesn't take much—half a brain per participant is enough—to turn a few posts of mudslinging into a perpetual dance: arguing via forum posts is like dodging bullets 'Matrix style'. You see what's coming a mile away and it's almost impossible to paint yourself into a corner.

Lol! You definitely not meaning me.

Believe me, most people paint themselves into a corner but pretend like it doesn't exists, shift to a new corner and continue sideways. They don't realise how nuanced, multiple level, multi-faceted things really are. Paint the big picture and it's like irrelevant. But also, truth really can go around in circles the deeper you go. At one level turth looks like this but deeper it looks like other things, but deeper again, then you find out it really looks like "this" again for other reasons/considerations/contexts and go deeper again it looks like something else, even one of the other things. So, it gets impossible with somebody that can sense the deeper things when they say something out of such sense, to argue agaibst it from some derived viewpoint they have picked up, as that person might likely get there eventually. At least you are a high class individual with intelligence, who said "..not needing to produce a working prototype of the invention is incredibly retarded..". Which suites the rich and people with too much of their brains devoted to manual skills rather than creative diagnostic and design, the important parts. Which is a progress disaster.

Luv you anyway.


Wayne.