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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Gate shadow - On OLPF1 & 2?

There are two different phenomenas being discussed here. One is Gate Shadow, (a band at edge of image) and Gate Flare. It's true that the Nikon mount exhibited the worst gate flare with the early versions of the mount. I believe with the latest rev, they have resolved the gate flare issue, by making the internal surfaces matte, and making a rubber gasket inside. The Gate Shadow is tougher to eliminate because the solution is typically to remove the flare and not the shadow. The larger sensor of the Dragon does make the shadow more pronounced than on the MX. A flash and its not so noticeable. Plenty of big budget films have artifacts like this. If it's stopping production because the Shadow Gate is constant and looks undesirable, I would change resolution to 5.5K, or 5K to get you through.

http://10framehandles.com/public/REDSite/MountTest-HD%201080p.mov
 
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Patrick Tresch said:
It also existed with the MX as it's a mount problem.
Click to expand...

Sorry but no, it does not. Not in the same way. I shoot flares all the time and never saw this issue on any other camera (have not used them all, but most) , but I do with Dragon and it's a bummer and seems mount-agnostic.

New Siwthcable OLPF improves this, but does not seem to eliminate the problem.

If you don't shoot a lot of flares, you will never see it or be bothered by it, and it doesn't show all the time, you just have to be unlucky. I've seen it edge all the way into the limits of a 4K frame crop, which is a quite narrow slice of the lens field of view (like 3.2K on MX) and in my opinion too narrow to look good in many cases - it's like shooting with a small sensor camera.

Again, you have to be unlucky, it seems, and not everyone shoots a lot of flares. I've seen entire features with not a single flare.
 
I watched baraka last night.

I counted about five gate shadows over the course of the film. There were also a few ever so gentle bumps in the dolly moves.


I am am not saying the gate shadow is OK. What I will say is that RED has redesigned the OLPF in such a way to minimize it as much as possible. We know that this thing exists and the fact is that when using red you need to know about it and find the proper workarounds.

Shining flashlights into the lens and fucked up angles is the current rage and creative choice and that is all fine and good, but his dad will also pass, hopefully with the low FI purple instagram look.

Visual boredom will set in for your clients and the next thing you'll know, black and white or bleach bypass will be back instyle. :)

for the record, aside from redesigning the entire sensor box,red has responded well and done all they can with this anomaly.

battistella
 
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??? Do you have running time on Baraka or chapter markers of the gate shadows? Until Dragon I'd never even seen a gate shadow in my 23 years of capturing images professionally.

You can't dismiss the problem by saying it will only appear when "shining flashlights at fucked up angles." Post #51 shows a backlit dog, the camera is near-level and the shadow cuts pretty deep into the shot. Hardly a radical shot.

I've had gate shadow ruin shots where I was shooting toward a north facing window covered by sheers and when shooting inside a small car garage looking outside. Both scenes had a large, soft light source gently flaring the entire image by lifting the blacks/mids and a nice big fat horizontal shadow cutting across the top of the shot. Hardly radical, hipster shots.

I think you're right though. This will be the reality of shooting Dragon.
 
Paul,

there's gate shadows all over Resovoir dogs too. It's not the first and only camera to demonstrate this.

In Baraka there are some fvertical gate flares in the Arizona night timelapse sequences.

I think the trend of people wanting to create flares on everything makes gate flare a bit more noticeable (which requires you to shine flashlights into your lens, etc). The reason I call it a trend is that I know people will flash lights into their lens for flares, but would they go so far as to remove the coatings for that look? Doubtful.

The Baraka example was to point out that even the most tediously filmed material, with the upmost care, can still find acceptable gate flare.

With complete respect to Fricke and Magidson who are absolute masters, but theor 70mm TL camera shows the exact same flare. You guys all one here like the EPIC is garbage and this is a massive issue. I don't see it that way.

It's more like Cinematographers have not really gone for that look much. :) So even the Todd-AO AP 65 will show this same type of flare even on the large format Hasselbald and Zeiss glass. It's just physics.

01:27:41 plain as day.

I had to make photographs off my computer display because I could not snapshot my legally purchased copy.

baraka_01.JPG


baraka_02.JPG


baraka_03.JPG
 
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Bob Gundu said:
There are two different phenomenas being discussed here. One is Gate Shadow, (a band at edge of image) and Gate Flare. It's true that the Nikon mount exhibited the worst gate flare with the early versions of the mount. I believe with the latest rev, they have resolved the gate flare issue, by making the internal surfaces matte, and making a rubber gasket inside. The Gate Shadow is tougher to eliminate because the solution is typically to remove the flare and not the shadow. The larger sensor of the Dragon does make the shadow more pronounced than on the MX. A flash and its not so noticeable. Plenty of big budget films have artifacts like this. If it's stopping production because the Shadow Gate is constant and looks undesirable, I would change resolution to 5.5K, or 5K to get you through.
Click to expand...
Great test, I must have one of the early nikon mounts ... when i look at it inside it has this super shinny black/purple metal. I get megga flares from ceiling lights unless i have a matte box that is perfectly aligned to the shot. Is there piece of plastic or rubber that I can get from RED to reduce this on older nikon mounts? I was thinking of masking the inside and just painting it myself, but that is a huge hassle me researching what paint to use/etc. I use the nikon mount for practicals, so it's really hard for me to avoid these flair lighting situations on the old nikon mount (plus i end up using the entire FF of the sensor since i don't know what I will eventually be framing the practical too for vfx integration and final compositing).
 
You can get optical black paint and paint the inside of the nikon mount. It's reduces the flaring significantly. While I cannot say that I have never seen it, optical black does the trick and helps with both gate and shadow flare. It's not a complicated procedure and it does not affect the electronics of the mount, just reduces all the light bouncing around inside.

Battistella
 
Ps.

The he examples I posted above are examples of gate shadow. The sensor box can, and the correct angles, cast a shadow on the film plane or sensor when that is recessed.

battistella
 
David Battistella said:
You can get optical black paint and paint the inside of the nikon mount. It's reduces the flaring significantly. While I cannot say that I have never seen it, optical black does the trick and helps with both gate and shadow flare. It's not a complicated procedure and it does not affect the electronics of the mount, just reduces all the light bouncing around inside.

Battistella
Click to expand...
Very cool, thanks. I think i'm going to get this : http://www.edmundoptics.com/lab-production/general-tools/acktar-light-absorbent-foil/88241
Seems like a fairly fool proof solution, and something i can back out of if i mess it up.
 
Red has done it.

its just the early batch of nikon mounts that had this problem. I think it's resolved in the latest version.

Battistella
 
I have better results with this solution on the Nikon mount V1.
There is some work for the AC to do to stick it to the mount.
I usually flock only top and bottom of the mount.


Pat
 
Hm. Shouldn't that gasket be as close to the sensor as possible? And why not put it on the OLPFs (inner-side of the glass to get it as close as possible?) so that it works with all mounts?
 
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As the flare is in the picture, putting the gasket closer to the OLPF wound't cut the flair. The PL mount design is less prone to flair. I don't know if the body side of the optical path is where the problem comes from. I'll test this on monday. If this is also the case it will be difficult to flock it out with a DIY kit...

Bob do you know if RED could do the upgrade to the Nikon mount V1 or do we have to buy a new one?

Pat
 
I have tested 4 different Nikon mounts. One was the Optitek. Surprisingly, didn't exhibit any vertical streaking. The other three are RED Nikon mounts. The earliest one didn't have a matte finish inside. The second one, does have a matte finish. The both still have vertical streaking. The third Nikon mount has the gasket, and its the only one from RED that prevents Vertical streaking.
 
Ok.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to start "flare gate" here. The main point is that flares are fashionable and gate flare is not. I can see this would be a problem for looks that require a lot of flare.

This stuff has been addressed by red with both the OLPF and the nikon mount, but the thread keeps getting bumped.

Battistella
 
Gate Shadow

Gate Shadow

There was a thread about gate shadow issues, but it was closed for some reason. Anyway, I just saw this info about the Nikon d750 recall that is happening over the same issue and thought it might be pertinent here.

http://petapixel.com/2015/01/14/nikon-d750-disappearing-stores-shelves-quiet-recall-underway/

Hopefully Red is able to offer the same fix as it's clearly problematic in some circumstances. Enough so for Nikon to go through the cost and trouble of a recall. And the new OLPF hardware doesn't seem to fix the issue.

Any updates on this?
 
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