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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Gate shadow - On OLPF1 & 2?

Wow. Who would have guessed the Dragon's new lens port design would cause these issues. There's certainly an art to all this!

I'm guessing Red will redesign this along with the new replaceable OLPF holders. Fingers crossed it's nothing to do with the actual lens mount designs as that would be difficult to solve.
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
I haven't seen any official acknowledgement of the problem or mention that a fix is underway. I'm afraid this will just be the reality of shooting Dragon for the foreseeable future .
Click to expand...

I think you are correct.

Battistella
 
Nasty


Paul J Steinberg said:
I haven't seen any official acknowledgement of the problem or mention that a fix is underway. I'm afraid this will just be the reality of shooting Dragon for the foreseeable future .
Click to expand...
 
Compare the rear of the PL mount vs. Nikon or Canon. The PL has a circular opening where the Nikon and Canon have a rectangular one. Me thinks this combined with the wider port bushing for the Dragon is where this "new feature" is being generated. If so, it would seem to be fitting for Red to offer a mod to those Dragon owners who don't appreciate this new feature, yet wish to use FF glass on those mounts.
 
I second that notion.
this is not a feature that was clearly advertised in any of the dragon marketing.

Why is Red so deliberately silent on this issue?
i have been over to RED Europe to show off the problem first hand, what I got was surprise.
I was asked for samples to send over to analysis.

i have since been asking for an official word on the matter. - nothing.
my emails to my bomb squad reps have been full of questions/complaints/ etc. about all sorts of issues, and I must say they have been fantastic at addressing every single thing I ask about, but this one issue always gets absolutely no respose when I ask the question directly.
not even - 'we are looking into it and will get back to you' just silence.
 
Well it seems to be a pretty significant design flaw. Different focal lengths are throwing that shadow closer to the center of the image so it isn't as simple as getting around vignetting (shooting 5K) caused by a sensor built larger than the target most lenses are designed for.

It is hard to imagine that for every camera Red ships out the door, they will have to ship it right back to fix this problem so I'm worried that this will just be the reality of using this camera.
 
The sensor has to be in a mathematically specific place.

Four or five different lens mounts rely on this position for back focus. The sensor box design has to accommodate the "extra" viewing area and size of the 6K sensor. The sensor is recessed in the box, it's that box that is casting a shadow onto the sensor and preventing light hitting the full sensor at certain angles from different lens and focal lengths. Each mount and lens combo will produce different results. This sorta comes with the territory.

On 2/3 inch sensor cameras there is rarely a lens change so the likelihood of seeing this is rarer and those combinations flare differently. In 35mm sensors there is more of a chance for this kind of issue with gate flares/shadows, etc. especially with interchangeable mounts, and different flaring characteristics of different glass, etc.

It seems to really only happen when their are hard light sources in the frame.

Having hard light sources in the frame and going after flares is becoming a more "normal" way of shooting now so if that is the style one is going after it is going to be a problem for sure.

im not sure what would have to happen to eliminate this.

Battistella
 
No, this shadow is affecting all flares. It's easy to see on hard flares but you'll see it if shooting in front of overexposed windows as well. I posted this frame earlier: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1j12qqdbm2...Y.0000019F.R3D . You see the shadow right near the latches of the Pelican case at the top of the frame.

I had a hand held shot in front of a blown out window, nice dreamy flares from my Ultraprimes, and this shadow ruined several takes.

I'm not Roger Deakins but I've been shooting professionally for over 20 years and this is the first camera I've ever seen to have this problem.
 
Just out of curiosity.

Have you opened a support ticket on this with all these examples and such? I'm sure you have but I was just asking.

I see what you are seeing. It's a drag. I see that two channels are clipped there as well, so maybe it has something to do with sensor overload as well. Not sure.

If you can't publicly post the other samples, then it might not be a bad idea to send the actual r3d to red so they can take a look.

Hey, what Toronto neighbourhood is that? reminds me of where I used to live in High Park. :)

Battistella
 
Is this showing up on PL mounts as well as Canon, Nikon, etc?
 
David Battistella said:
Just out of curiosity.

Have you opened a support ticket on this with all these examples and such? I'm sure you have but I was just asking.

I see what you are seeing. It's a drag. I see that two
Click to expand...

Yes, and all they told me was that it is "normal behaviour".

Unfortunately my old epic never did that (image 2), so this is quite annoying .
 
Ivan Kovax said:
Unfortunately my old epic never did that (image 2), so this is quite annoying .
Click to expand...
This phenomenon is a worry.
If it is related to the 6K size, does it occur in high contrast situation when croping the sensor lets say to 5K?
B.
 
David:
Yes, a ticket is open and all the R3D's have been shared with Red Tech support and they have replicated the issue at their end. This was my backyard in The Beaches with a lawn that needs mowing.

Mark:
Yes, this shadow has been seen with PL/Canon/Nikon mounts.

Brice:
Different focal lengths put the shadow in different places. I find you can hide it in the 5K crop on the 32mm Ultraprime but not the 50mm Ultraprime.

These are the R3D examples from the first post in the thread: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4hab87i00...27UbjlaHnxlN4a


Explanation:
A001_C001: 32mm 6KHD - Shadow present
A001_C002: 32mm 5KHD - No Shadow (outside crop)

A001_C003: 50mm 6KHD - Shadow present
A001_C004: 50mm 5KHD - Shadow present

A001_C005 is the 50mm 5KHD with movement so you can see how it comes in/out.
 
maybe we should have someone test all the various aspect ratios with a variety of lenses... im away for a month on an arri job and dont have my dragon but whenever im back i would be happy to try and do some tests. i think its unfortunate that all i read on RU about my new baby is problems, i love red and the ecosystem and workflow, all of it. its a great tool and i trust red will always work hard to fix whatever issues we complain about, they have shown that time and again. im sure in the end things will work out, but lately i have been worried since i thought the 13k or so i blew on dragon and rocket x would be a sure bet, all this negative publicity sure isn't helping the situation lol...i wanna get into the glass game, or an arri body..something that is a sure bet to book lately...i got enough write offs this year, but next year im gonna finance something for sure is my plan, something with so much brand equity it can offset my red rentals if they don't book ad great as i had hoped they would... (due to all the negative issues and reporting thereof)
 
Ivan Kovax said:
Yes, and all they told me was that it is "normal behaviour".

Unfortunately my old epic never did that (image 2), so this is quite annoying .
Click to expand...

Thanks Ivan,

I was just reminding. Not everyone posts a ticket and the ticket system is important as more people at RED (like the ones who are on here far less than some of us) see the issues.

I have not come across it a ton, but I know it is a real drag for some people.

Battistella
 
I seem to be suffering from this with my Dragon also (Canon Mount) , don't recall it being as pronounced with my Epic and i am filming in same location with same lens etc.
Just meant i had to move position a little etc, but kind of frustrating.

Andrew.
 
Andrew Usher said:
I seem to be suffering from this with my Dragon also (Canon Mount) , don't recall it being as pronounced with my Epic and i am filming in same location with same lens etc.
Just meant i had to move position a little etc, but kind of frustrating.

Andrew.
Click to expand...

Some lenses exhibit this worse than others... good thing is that the new OLPF system has a new piece to help correct this for the most part.
 
Wanted to chime in that I also noticed this last night. I was testing the dragon at 6k FF with a Cooke Mini S4 75mm and getting a pretty similar result of that "Cut off flare" going across the frame.
 
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