gamma shift in FCP / Quicktime ... is there a workaround for internet delivery ?

[Michael Totten]

I just graded a piece at CO3 - I was given an Apple ProRes 444 file (had to drop music and titles in before delivery).
I want to ensure that what I'm seeing on my file is going to be what the director (who's in NY) is going to see... and furthermore what all of the viewers will see.
I realize there will be a certain amount of shift depending on everyones monitor etc... but the difference that I'm seeing when exporting to H.264 is insane.
Much darker.
what's the most current method / codec that will give me the most accurate contrast/colors/gamma?

 

[Tom.Wong]

was struggling with this issue a few weeks ago grading out of da vinci and sending clients h264 for review. my solution was dropping the graded file into premiere cs5 timeline, add audio etc. and export from the time line. the results are the best i've found so far. Adobe uses their own quicktime render engine, doesn't use mac OS quicktime at all. thus no gamma shift.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I'd be interested in the answer to this too!

Luckily, our clients distrust h.264 as well, so it is a mutually-understood problem and therefore they don't base final color decisions on h.264.

I have had luck with the x.264 encoder - brightness was very similar to the original. Then I found out that it played one way on my machine... and another way on another machine! The problem is that there are now so many variables - are they playing in Quicktime 7 or X or in their browser? What are their Quicktime settings, what is their gamma set to, what version of OS X are they on, etc?

Personally, I just send some JPEG stills along with the quicktime for safety along with a message eg:
"hey - tell me if the brightness of the Quicktime doesn't match these JPEG stills. Depending on how Quicktime is set up it might show things at the wrong brightness on your machine."

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Johnny Friday]

I've struggled with this for YEARS.....I've never seen a real world fix that works all the time.....going to DPX is usually an answer, but for those asking for prores....have to give them what they want......but transcode from R3d to prores---work that prores in FCP --- wow the gamma shift is huge. Even when selecting none for gamma in the conversion.....instead of auto....never found a fix but just work with it and set levels in FCP.

 

[Bruce Allen]

was struggling with this issue a few weeks ago grading out of da vinci and sending clients h264 for review. my solution was dropping the graded file into premiere cs5 timeline, add audio etc. and export from the time line. the results are the best i've found so far. Adobe uses their own quicktime render engine, doesn't use mac OS quicktime at all. thus no gamma shift.

Tom - am I missing something? That makes a .mp4 file for me. Which when I double-click, loads into Adobe Soundbooth. My clients have the Adobe Suite, so that is a dealbreaker.

If I rename it to .mov, then it loads into Quicktime 7 but shows with a black frame. I can hit play and after a second it'll sort itself out but this is also not client friendly. Otherwise agree - that would be great. Hopefully you can set me straight RE which button I missed when trying to make a .mov instead of a .mp4.

I'm going to try Sorenson Squeeze that came with my Media Composer upgrade next and see if it can work...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Michael Totten]

was struggling with this issue a few weeks ago grading out of da vinci and sending clients h264 for review. my solution was dropping the graded file into premiere cs5 timeline, add audio etc. and export from the time line. the results are the best i've found so far. Adobe uses their own quicktime render engine, doesn't use mac OS quicktime at all. thus no gamma shift.

Yeah I tried this and it was a bit closer but still darker than the original. I'm starting with a ProRes 444 (RGB) and then going to either 422 or H.264... I've been told that starting from 444 is adding another layer of color/gamma shift. If I can successfully get into a 422 color space then I think I can get to H.264 from there... I'm going to do some tests from Premiere.

 

[Craig Parkes]

One thing I have found in Compressor which seems to help but is no guarantee is that if you go to the filters tab on the compression setting inspector, and then go to colors, you can change the setting from default for encoder, to either 601 or 709.

If you are using an H.264 encoding setting, this makes an H.264 encoded quicktime which, if going from a Rec.709 source to a 709 setting in compressor, seems to work out reasonable well.

From there, in Quicktime, you can open it up and export it to an mp4 (with pass through selected so it doesn't do any re encoding on audio and video) and then I worry less about the other persons quicktime settings mucking up the image - also seems to look pretty good on iPads etc.

This isn't my regular workflow, but it's something I have tried on occassion when I knew the mp4 was going to be displayed.

I'd prefer not to use compressor at all, and don't trust anything that goes via the quicktime interface, but that's something that's almost impossible to avoid.

 

[Tom.Wong]

Tom - am I missing something? That makes a .mp4 file for me. Which when I double-click, loads into Adobe Soundbooth. My clients have the Adobe Suite, so that is a dealbreaker.

If I rename it to .mov, then it loads into Quicktime 7 but shows with a black frame. I can hit play and after a second it'll sort itself out but this is also not client friendly. Otherwise agree - that would be great. Hopefully you can set me straight RE which button I missed when trying to make a .mov instead of a .mp4.

I'm going to try Sorenson Squeeze that came with my Media Composer upgrade next and see if it can work...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

select QUICKTIME, no h264 under format, and than select h264 as ur codec. it's a LOT closer than any other qt encoder. and try to get them to view it in QT 7 instead of qt X. qt X causes a lot of problems too.

 

[jake blackstone]

For reviewing graded material I gave up on H264 a long time ago.
I use JPG sequence. QT player plays them just fine. Obviously there is an occasional motion issue, but for color decisions, I find this solution much easier and much closer to the original, than h264.

 

[Michael Totten]

One thing I have found in Compressor which seems to help but is no guarantee is that if you go to the filters tab on the compression setting inspector, and then go to colors, you can change the setting from default for encoder, to either 601 or 709.

If you are using an H.264 encoding setting, this makes an H.264 encoded quicktime which, if going from a Rec.709 source to a 709 setting in compressor, seems to work out reasonable well.

From there, in Quicktime, you can open it up and export it to an mp4 (with pass through selected so it doesn't do any re encoding on audio and video) and then I worry less about the other persons quicktime settings mucking up the image - also seems to look pretty good on iPads etc.

This isn't my regular workflow, but it's something I have tried on occassion when I knew the mp4 was going to be displayed.

I'd prefer not to use compressor at all, and don't trust anything that goes via the quicktime interface, but that's something that's almost impossible to avoid.

Craig,

This seemed to work out ok. Not perfect but close enough. I had to change the gamma from 1.00 to .97 to get it closer.
thanks,
Michael

 

[Michael Totten]

For reviewing graded material I gave up on H264 a long time ago.
I use JPG sequence. QT player plays them just fine. Obviously there is an occasional motion issue, but for color decisions, I find this solution much easier and much closer to the original, than h264.

Thanks Jake.
I'm going to give this a shot too.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

The only real solution is to avoid anything to do with Quicktime or MOV like plague. Export DPX/JPEG sequence from FCP and then encode to X264 with a MP4 container. The ideal situation is everyone uses X264, MKV container and MPC-Homecinema with MadVR renderer on calibrated displays.