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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Future improvements...still possible?

Personally, I was looking forward to being able to offer my clients dual link to HD-CAM SR off the camera.

We were also looking forward to using the Codex system through the RAW port (or dual link) for real time capture. That's out now too.

This camera really should have some kind of real-time output. I'm all for innovative technology, but having to spend hours downrezing in the suite is unfortunate especially when 4K is overkill for most common workflows.

This just contributes to the perception that this is a quasi-prosumer niche market camera.

Full sensor 1080p 444 out dual link is pretty important. It was on the literature from last years NAB. I really hope it's not another casualty.
 
Häakon wrote:
"For the umpteenth time, the reason is (was) to get full-frame readout at faster than standard framerates. Period. For some reason, it's not sinking in with some people that there is still currently no way to do this!!"
Well you for one!
Most of us got this many months ago:"The full sensor is maxed out at 60fps"
It has been common knowledge for a looong time.
Another useless thread.
Get with it allready...try and be professional.
Sorry but it bores the hell out of me with all this nonsense.
Sorry.
JJ DP
 
Jens Jakob Thorsen said:
Häakon wrote:
"For the umpteenth time, the reason is (was) to get full-frame readout at faster than standard framerates. Period. For some reason, it's not sinking in with some people that there is still currently no way to do this!!"
Well you for one!
Most of us got this many months ago:"The full sensor is maxed out at 60fps"
It has been common knowledge for a looong time.
Another useless thread.
Get with it allready...try and be professional.
Sorry but it bores the hell out of me with all this nonsense.
Sorry.
JJ DP
Click to expand...


I think Häakon understands this. I think he is saying that 60fps is not available at full-frame readout. To get this you need to crop to 3K. (Which is much better than 2K BTW !).

Cheers,
S.
 
Jannard said " it IS EASIER to do 4K full frame than scaled anything from full frame." and that they are committed to doing 1080 cropped.

Since when has the Red team only chosen to do what is 'easy' ?!?. Oh, boo hoo hoo, making a 4K camera is too hard. This porridge is too hot.

Saying they are committed to 1080 cropped does not mean to me that 1080 scaled will never be available.

Will someone from Red simply say whether 1080 scaled will ever happen. A simple yes or no would be fine.
 
CrewPix.com said:
Will someone from Red simply say whether 1080 scaled will ever happen. A simple yes or no would be fine.
Click to expand...

NO.

Jim has said that many times now. It's likely that it's technically not possible with the hardware currently onboard.

Move on, nothing left to see here.
 
joelnet said:
NO.Jim has said that many times now. It's likely that it's technically not possible with the hardware currently onboard.
Click to expand...

Could you reference a specific post? All I can find are "Why would you want to shoot 1080 when you can shoot 4K." I don't believe anyone official has ever said it is absolutely not happening. I love to be proven wrong.
 
CrewPix.com said:
Could you reference a specific post? All I can find are "Why would you want to shoot 1080 when you can shoot 4K." I don't believe anyone official has ever said it is absolutely not happening. I love to be proven wrong.
Click to expand...

I've personally read it from Jim but I'm not going to hunt it down for you. If you're losing sleep over this feel free to search. They are going to pursue cropped 1080P but not scaled.
 
Perhaps someone with technical knowlege can answer this for me. If shooting at a full fram 4k sensor will result in 3.2K of effective resolution, then what will be the effective resolution of shooting CROPPED 1080?

Jay
 
joelnet said:
NO.

Jim has said that many times now. It's likely that it's technically not possible with the hardware currently onboard.

Move on, nothing left to see here.
Click to expand...

Not true. He has said that it would be impossible to do this while still recording 4K. Initially the plan was to support 1080p 4:4:4 via dual hd-sdi (yeah I know - everything is subject to change), but this was changed later on and I seem to remember something about being able to provide 1080p scaled in a special build of the camera's firmware (something I haven't heard anyone from RED put to rest - yet).

However stupid it might seem to some of you to offer 1080p in-camera, some of us would like it for projects that do not require 4K (i.e. industrials, documentaries, low budget commercials, very time critical jobs).

I just want the most versatile tool, guys! One camera to rule them all :meh:
 
tlorenzo said:
I seem to remember something about being able to provide 1080p scaled in a special build of the camera's firmware (something I haven't heard anyone from RED put to rest - yet).
Click to expand...

Ok, I remember that too. But I remember reading that it had been given up on since then. Maybe I'm wrong, and frankly I'd like to be wrong - but I don't think I am.
 
There will be a special build for 1080P (and 720P). But it will NOT be scaled.

We are doing this because our customers think they want it. We see no reason... really. But we heard it long enough to put it on the list.

If everyone changes their mind (PLEASE!) then we will scratch it off the list and add something that really matters.

Jim
 
After playing with the workflow and camera for a few weeks I see no benefit to a 1080 cropped build, UNLESS it's in a RGB format that is NLE ready (prores, dnxhd).

Instead I would rather pay good money for a standalone box that would do a REALTIME decode of 4k into 1080p 4:4:4 and 4:2:2, with full lut support (including curves), rs-422, SD downconvert, etc. Essentially a standalone Kona Io for Raw footage.

Basically this is the other half of the Camera that is left out of the box (thank god) on the Red One.

Please pretty pretty please!
 
joelnet said:
NO.

Jim has said that many times now. It's likely that it's technically not possible with the hardware currently onboard.

Move on, nothing left to see here.
Click to expand...

With all due respect Joel, we don't need your value judgements as to whether our desire for scaled 1080 output is valid or not. What Crewpix was asking for was a response from Jim, not you. You may think that it is "likely" to be technically impossible, but I would rather hear that from Jim or someone else at Red who actually knows.
Originally, the specs on this camera called for scaled 1080 output, and of course everything changes. Jim has said that they are "committed" to a cropped solution now, which no one seems to want.

Would someone at Red please let us know whether the decision to abandon 1080 output was based on hardware constraints, or if there might be a remote possibility of having it included in a firmware upgrade some time down the road.

If it is impossible, then we'll all just move on.
Thanks.
 
Sorry, I missed Jim's posting which came in while I was compiling mine.

Thanks as always for addressing our concerns and watching the feedback.

I can understand why you would be mystified as to why anyone would want 1080p cropped or 720p cropped. I don't know why anyone would want them either.

If scaled is an impossibility, then I think that developing the cropped option might be a waste of valuable man hours.
 
Jannard said:
If everyone changes their mind (PLEASE!) then we will scratch it off the list and add something that really matters.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking people wanted scaled. I'd drop it down the list if it's cropped. I think we're getting this camera for the 35mm DOF. The fact that it's 4K turns out to be very cool and once workflows get ironed out I think shooting 4K is what everyone will naturally want to do. (and I didn't used to think that way, but I've seen the light on this one)

Maybe people can clarify here what they want from a cropped 1080P KNOWING they aren't getting scaled. What benefit do you think you're getting? I'm with Jim here, I don't understand. If you want to save disk space you can shoot 2K. And get 120FPS to boot. Unless 720P is offering way faster slow motion then this sounds like a waste of time.

I'd rather have fully customizable user buttons working that allow me to set change multiple settings with a click. And change them all again with a second click. That's totally doable.

The camera itself is getting very close to completely kicking ass as far as I can see. That infrared thing is important too.
 
kinoeye said:
With all due respect Joel, we don't need your value judgements
If it is impossible, then we'll all just move on.
Click to expand...

I didn't give a value judgement. I said what I'd read. And Jim just repeated.

You may not know this, but I was a big fan of the idea of scaled 1080P because I believed it would speed up the workflow and save disk space also. But then I learned it wasn't possible and that's what I posted.

God.
 
Can the sensor capture a pseudo full-chip image at 1080p by collecting data from every other photo site? It might allow the chip to perform at 1080p full frame without the extra burden of interpolation.

Here's a sample of what I'm talking about, where only the 'x' sites are collected from the chip (perhaps in quad blocks to get pockets of RGGB):

x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
 
Lowkus said:
Can the sensor capture a pseudo full-chip image at 1080p by collecting data from every other photo site? It might allow the chip to perform at 1080p full frame without the extra burden of interpolation.
Click to expand...

That would seem to be the best way to do it since the camera is capturing RAW data off the chip in the first place. I think it would be less than every other pixel though.
 
Lowkus said:
Can the sensor capture a pseudo full-chip image at 1080p by collecting data from every other photo site? It might allow the chip to perform at 1080p full frame without the extra burden of interpolation.

Here's a sample of what I'm talking about, where only the 'x' sites are collected from the chip (perhaps in quad blocks to get pockets of RGGB):

x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
x - o - x - o - x - o - x
o - x - o - x - o - x - o
Click to expand...

We've been through this before in great detail. In fact here's a similar post I made following the same logic: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=113514#post113514

The problem likes in the details: sounds good in theory, but it introduces way too many moiré artifacts to be workable. It seemed almost workable at the time, but if you follow the threads that followed--Graeme and other experts quickly squashed the theory with their practical experiementation and real world experience.
 
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