Future improvements...still possible?

[Maz Mawlawi]

Hi,

I have a few questions about whether some features are still coming to RED One or not. This is not a complain or the start of a flame war. Just wanted to know the answers (if possible) to know how to plan and what to expect. So here they are:

1) Is a 1080P full sensor record with 1080P output still a possibility?

2) Higher than 120fps in a windowed 720P?

3) Programmable functions for buttons 1 and 2 ?

4) The long overdue and promised "Flux Capacitor" for time travel?

Thanks for any info you can provide!

 

[Dj Joofa]

1) Is a 1080P full sensor record with 1080P output still a possibility?

3xm, this is one issue I have thought for some time and wondered if it is really in Red's interest to provide 1080 output. Lets think about it. Other much cheaper cameras, say Ex1, can already provide 1080 output. People can use adapters with them to use 35mm lenses. Admittedly, using 35mm lenses with a smaller than designed chip size (say Ex1 vs. 35 mm sensor) might result in the softening of an image because the 35 mm lens may not have sufficient MTF to resolve for a smaller chip size. However, probably in practise, it may not be a big issue (help, David Mullen, Finner).

Even, if the footage appears soft on a computer screen, it might look OK on a projected theater screen, as theater projector always reduces contrast even for a sharper footage.

Hence, what will Red be left with as a discrimination factor? Of course, Red can always claim that their version of 1080 originated from 4k and hence, richer in some sense, but a lot of it will be nullified in projection.

I think by providing 1080 Red will loose more and gain less.

 

[Bing Bailey]

RED loses nothing by providing features. Sony thinks that way. not RED

 

[hybris]

3xm, this is one issue I have thought for some time and wondered if it is really in Red's interest to provide 1080 output. Lets think about it. Other much cheaper cameras, say Ex1, can already provide 1080 output. People can use adapters with them to use 35mm lenses. Admittedly, using 35mm lenses with a smaller than designed chip size (say Ex1 vs. 35 mm sensor) might result in the softening of an image because the 35 mm lens may not have sufficient MTF to resolve for a smaller chip size. However, probably in practise, it may not be a big issue (help, David Mullen, Finner).

The "other much cheaper cameras" still doesn't provide full format 35mm field of view coverage from the 35mm Nikon lenses.

Actually, this "full format 1080p" feature is on the top of my list, and is the one thing bugging me about Red One. I, personally, don't have any use for anything more than 1080p and larger file sizes only hurts my workflow.

That's why I'm hoping Scarlet to deliver on this feature, perhaps with a lesser megapixel sensor, but still the full 35mm coverage.
That is - if Red One doesn't add this feature in a firmware update.

 

[Häakon]

The point to shooting 1080 scaled is faster framerates from the full 4K sensor. It's NOT about getting to a 1080 finish faster by doing it in-camera. Currently, if you want to overcrank, it means you must lose field of view and native resolution to do it. Whether or not RED is going to provide this oft-requested feature is completely up to them, but it does surprise me why the benefit of offering such a solution is lost on so many people. At one point, I was under the impression that it would be easier for RED to offer 2K scaled as opposed to 1080, but they're vehemently denying that this will ever be a feature. Hopefully 1080 is still on the books.

As far as offering 1080 monitoring output, the sooner the better.

 

[Jannard]

One more time... the frame rate of full frame is fixed at 60fps. Period. At 4K, 2K, 1080P, 720P... whatever. That is the clock speed of the sensor and camera architecture. So there is NO frame rate advantage to shoot scaled 1080P. Unless we could provide 60fps 1080P scaled, which we cannot do. If we could, we would have already delivered 60fps 2K scaled.

But don't count out higher fps 4K in the future. (no... not by NAB!)

Jim

 

[Häakon]

I would love 4K at 60p Jim. Then any scaled mode would be completely irrelevant.

 

[Joel Kaye]

but they're vehemently denying that this will ever be a feature. Hopefully 1080 is still on the books.

Seems to me downrezzing 4K to 2k or 1080P is very processor intensive so RED simply hasn't been able to figure out a way to do.

Now pulling the 2K stream, cropping it to 1080P and sending it out the HD-SDI and/or HDMI seems more doable. But I don't know jack about this stuff.

 

[Jannard]

I would love 4K at 60p Jim. Then any scaled mode would be completely irrelevant.

Any scaled mode is already irrelevant. It is no easier to do 1080P scaled than 4K from a full sensor. Sorry... it IS EASIER to do 4K full frame than scaled anything from full frame.

Jim

 

[Häakon]

Seems to me downrezzing 4K to 2k or 1080P is very processor intensive so RED simply hasn't been able to figure out a way to do.

It appears that's the case. This is this first time I've seen Jim state that 1080/60p scaled is not possible... maybe I just missed it before. I've seen the "60p is the max framerate we can get from the full sensor!" quote, but currently I can't get 60p from my full sensor. Since the scaled options that were originally on the spec sheet did show overcranking capability, I was under the impression that the hardware could handle it but it was not being offered because the team/Jim did not see value in shooting RGB. If it's a technical limitation they have not been able to overcome, that's a different story.

I'm somewhat dissapointed to hear the news, but for the amount of overcranking I do, 3K isn't a bad solution. I don't personally find the quality of the 2K mode to be acceptable for my needs, so at least we have another choice for shots up to 60p.

If there's any confusion, Jim, my steadfast support for having a 1080 mode was strictly for full sensor overcranking capability onboard. If that's a no-go, then I have absolutely no need for such a feature. Sorry if I hadn't been making that clear.

 

[Jannard]

We are committed to giving a 1080P (cropped) solution. We are also committed to finding new ways to give our customers more options.

Jim

 

[Häakon]

I think the discrepancy has been the difference between cropped and scaled, and perhaps when people don't indicate which they prefer, wrong assumptions are made. Have you had any requests for a 1080 *cropped* solution?

I definitely appreciate the commitment to continually expanding the feature set.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

We are also committed to finding new ways to give our customers more options.

Jim

Digital modularity.
Customizable menus, UI modes, controls, external controllers.

 

[Derek Wiesehahn]

Please forgive me if this has already been answered, but I need to ask again: Is the final word on the matter that there will never be full frame 1080P in-camera capture for the RED? Is it a technical impossibility due to processing issues?
I am only asking because for me, it would be the single most welcome improvement to the system that could be made. I shoot mostly for broadcast, so I almost never need the extra resolution of 4K, also, all of that extra data uses up a lot of memory and slows down workflow. I know that shooting cropped frames would be an option, but I don't really want to own multiple lenses for different formats, and what really attracted me to Red in the first place was the ability to use 35mm format lenses in order to achieve beautiful film-like images with film-like depth of field. To me, that is the main difference between the thinking behind Red, and that of companies like Sony who seem to believe that smaller is better.

 

[Keith Neff]

I think Jim's comments totally address the subject, if you want a camera that can spit out 1080p broadcast you are going to have to stay with a broadcast camera. What really needs to happen is to get the codec into wider distribution so the Avid's, Flames etc. of the world can use .r3d without having to render to other file formats.
All that being said, look at the dismal support for P2 among the biggies. Whenever we need to work with P2 we have to throw it through FCP to get something we can use and P2 ain't exactly the new kid on the block.

 

[Rege]

Red has given us an amazing 4K camera with incredible versatility and people still want to turn it back into a video camera. I don't get it. With the Red and the power of it's post production pipeline any format is possible.

Kudos to Jim and the Red crew. Thank you!

 

[Brent J. Craig]

Red has given us an amazing 4K camera with incredible versatility and people still want to turn it back into a video camera. I don't get it.

By the end of 2008, 50 million homes in the US will have HDTV's. How many 4K TVs will there be?

Gee, I can't think of any reason people would want to shoot 1080p, can you?

 

[Derek Wiesehahn]

Red has given us an amazing 4K camera with incredible versatility and people still want to turn it back into a video camera. I don't get it. With the Red and the power of it's post production pipeline any format is possible.

Kudos to Jim and the Red crew. Thank you!

Sorry if my posting was unclear. I will reiterate:

For me it's all about chip size, and not resolution.

My understanding is that 4K is roughly 4 times as much resolution as HD, and therefore, I would presumably be using up 4 times as much hard drive space or 4 times as many CF cards as 1080P recording normally requires. That may also mean 4 times as much processing time in post, and a lot of flack from my editor and producer, who may prefer that we shoot with a camera that has a chip which is 4 times smaller and doesn't look half as good.

No disrespect to Jim or the Red team regarding these observations, I am absolutely in awe of what they have achieved with this camera and I am extremely excited about the prospect of getting mine next month. I just want to see this revolution move across the entire industry, including broadcast. I believe that Red can give Sony and Panasonic a serious run for their money if the Red workflow isn't that much more complicated.

 

[David Dennis]

Interesting point, CrewPix.

One thing I have noticed is that if I use a higher quality image sensor to take pictures, the image is higher quality even when resized to a lower resolution. 640x480 pictures taken with a DSLR still look like DSLR pictures and not 640x480 phone camera pictures. I think that's the practical reason to use 4K today. I can really understand Jim's frustration as he answers the same question about 6,000 times. I think if possible I would want to shoot 4K and see it reduced down in post.

But I do have some questions ...

Did Jim ever come up with that 4K projector I seem to remember him promising about a year ago?

Are 4K projectors still gut-wrenchingly expensive?

Are there even any computer monitors capable of displaying 4K?

I think I just answered my own question - the 30" Apple Cinema Display is about half the resolution of a RED One. This means that you would actually have to combine the images from four 30" Cinema Displays (at $1,750 each) to show the entire image.

Does Jim use a 4K projector to monitor his image while editing, and if not, what does he do?

And how do other RED owners, perhaps not as upscale as Jim, view their footage?

It seems a pity that we have this amazing camera and we can't even view the full quality of the images!

And I'm sure that saddens Jim as much as any of his customers, if not more.

D

 

[SF Geek]

That's pretty much the gist of it Keith. I don't think Red should bother with 1080 cropped. I don't think anyone here is asking for that and I was one who was really pushing for 1080 scaled.