Future cameras

[Mark Toia]

Hi All,

Now this is just my humble opinion... nothing more.

I've been reading a few threads on this forum lately and one of them really caught my attention. It was about Digital SLR's that shoot HD 1080p as well as stills.
I've made a point of downloading some test shots from websites people have posted and to be honest, I feel worried. Even though they may not be perfect now, give it a 12 months and with RED bringing out there DSLR, Id say all of us that have forked out for a RED ONE will be kicking ourselves. I do feel that these HD shootin DSLR's are the first nail in all of our RED ONE coffins.

I downloaded a simple shot, shot from a EOS 5D that shoots 1080p HD. Chucked it quickly into After effects, played with it for a few minutes and scared myself in the process.

See test: http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/DSLR_test/

Even though these cameras are in there infancy, the future for them is very very clear.
They will be able to shoot with 35mm depth of field, (in time) different frame rates, shutter speeds, everything. You'd be silly if you didn't believe this was not going to happen.

RED's planned DSLR will become even better again than this CANON EOS thing and will no doubt effect the TV content market.
What I'm concerned about is this. My substantial RED ONE purchases will become superseded in a year or 2, with people running around madly shooting and producing HDTV content with 35mm depth of field from a 3000 dollar camera.
Does this already saturated market need anymore pressure on it.

Now this is not a dig at RED. hardly... RED are great innovators and all credit to them. RED are only doing what all RED blooded Americans are born to do. Make money and supply what the public want. Great pic's at a cheap price.
This is not about RED.

What I'm concerned about now is spending a few hundred grand on a few camera systems (RED ONE's) that will get toppled by a very effective DSLR in a very short time frame.

Image quality isn't everything, (but as cinematographers we love it) Content is everything.
What we put on air now is compressed, MPEG-ed etc then broadcast, our footage becomes a shadow of it's former self.
So maybe these DSLR's will be enough..... maybe not....

Time will tell

Just thinking out loud...

Still a RED fan. (but worried)

 

[Samuel Doyle]

I am impressed....thats not a bad key

 

[Mark Toia]

I am impressed....thats not a bad key

Stupid thing is, I didn't even try to fine tune it. It was a one touch colour sample, If I spent another 2 minutes on it, I would have got it perfect.
Keying is a good test for footage, PANASONIC P2 HD footage doesn't key this good.

 

[david farland]

Interesting but not sure....
Say in 3 years you have a DSLR with video with the latitude of Vision 4 stock, 6K, 1 hr/CF card, great 4 channel audio, remote focus with killer assist options, tricky in-sensor ND ranging, intelligent steadishot blah blah and matches the dreams Jim had with RedOne with a price tag to boot. It won't make you a cinematographer, give you conviction or imagination, get you real friends or make people cry at your films.

But you'll have a nice toy in today's terms!....ah progress!
Dave,

 

[Mark Toia]

Interesting but not sure....
Say in 3 years you have a DSLR with video with the latitude of Vision 4 stock, 6K, 1 hr/CF card, great 4 channel audio, remote focus with killer assist options, tricky in-sensor ND ranging, intelligent steadishot blah blah and matches the dreams Jim had with RedOne with a price tag to boot. It won't make you a cinematographer, give you conviction or imagination, get you real friends or make people cry at your films.

But you'll have a nice toy in today's terms!....ah progress!
Dave,

I'm not sure either,
I'm just hoping that my RED's get at least 2 years out of them selves before I have to chuck them in the bin.
Your "Toy DSLR with video with the latitude of Vision 4 stock, 6K, 1 hr/CF card, great 4 channel audio, remote focus with killer assist options" may not be a just pipe dream in 12 months time.

 

[Benjamin Rowland]

Canon does seem to be in a good position to offer Red some competition in the not too distant future (Nikon - maybe). Right now, Scarlet 2.0 could be Red's ace up the sleeve. They've got a good track record so far of surprising the industry.

Exciting times.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

If history teaches us anything, it's a certainty that near-future cameras in the consumer price range will do everything the Red One does today and do it even better.

This does not eliminate the art and skill of the operator being necessary to make beautiful motion pictures, but the democratization of access to very high-quality/high-capability tools will result in many more people developing those talents.

Reviewing the impact of the SLR at hobbyist prices, there are now legions of advanced amateur photographers producing outstanding work. One should expect the same result from the emergence of the next generations of digital motion picture cameras available at modest prices.

While I expect we'll still be shooting with whatever our Reds become, we'll need more than great equipment to differentiate ourselves. Just as editing software such as Final Cut has put tremendous pressure on post houses, the affordable cameras of the future will challenge us to depend solely on our art and skill.

The coin of the new realm will be a broad range of expertise necessary to accomplish a successful production. Budgeting, casting, crewing, management, etc. to name a few.

I remember the conference room scene in 2001; the tiny camera that seemed so unlikely at the time may well be at hand. Perhaps not quite so small, the laws of physics being as stubborn as they are, but certainly a glimpse of things to come - and soon.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Jonas Rejman]

This also will only be my personal opinion, and I want to note, that I have not dared to invest in a RED ONE. Not, because I am not convinced, but I felt that for the investment, I rather make a project and rent the camera for my specific needs. I did not try to make a rental or a post company, based on the fact, that I might have gotten the camera in the early days. I therefore have not my "ass on the line" in the sense, that I would have invested in the system, and now have to fear about how future proof it was or not.


That being said, I think that the recent posts, where people are worried about, if the RED ONE was a good choice or not, are a bit exaggerating.

The RED is in the league, where it competes with film equipment. This equipment is designed to work under very tough conditions, while maintaining the ultimate precision, that is needed for a high quality acquisition of the images.
The depth of field is a fine example. It seems, that a lot of people are experiencing problems with this very "filmic" depth of field, because they did not had to care much about it on their HD cameras. In order to have a focus, you need a brilliant focus puller, one that uses tape, and one that does not require a 1080p monitor to focus, because he was able to pull it, when there was only SD video-out on the 35mm cameras. He will need the proper lenses, with precise and long focus paths, and a follow focus unit, that responds directly to the lens.
This craftsmanship is worth gold, and will be needed, no matter what the camera costs. And this is, where the money lies in the production.

I see the RED, as a very convenient way, to swap out a filmcamera body, and then save money on filmstock, processing, development, telecine and scans.
But what remains, are the all the other things, you need for a movie. The accessories, the cinelenses, the dollies, the lights, the crews, the actors ...

Of course there will be guys, who will try to shoot movies with a 3000 USD camera. But those will also need all the accessories I mentioned before, and because a DSLR is not designed to do movie work, those accessories will not be cheap, while the whole construct will still be a compromise. I think that the bottomline will be, that if you want the things to be fast enough on the set, so that you shoot, rather than fight technical issues, you will want to rely on true cinegear. I am always to do that as a producer, because in the end, you are saving money, and you have more control.

No doubt, there will be people, who will shoot great stuff with a DSLR. But those will be able to do it on VHS as well. On the other hand, there will be a flood of medicore and crappy footage of all those wanna-bees, who think a camera is the answer to a good movie. They will find, that it is not.

The pricing of the RED, and of its accessories (ViewFactor/Element Technica), is allowing a whole new group to get hand on extreme quality. It is a chance. But this is nothing without the craftsmen behind it. And those, unfortunately do not fall off the sky, like the RED did :-D.

So my point on that will be, that yes, there will be a lot of competition. But mostly from guys, who's videos will all look alike, like those on youtube. And those who know, they will likely embrace the RED ONE and its opportunities.

And the RED dslr? Well, lets wait and see. There was a matebox once, a wireless followfocus, 4K digital projectors and displays a set of primelenses. Now the scarlet and epic are beeing redesigned. Only the RED ONE is very real. Cannon and Nikon will not magically pump out a camera, that will be able to compete in the categories I just mentioned. Even if they do within a year, your RED will be further, the workflow will be faster, and the clients will trust it more.

So no, even if I had a RED, I would not be afraid. Again, easy talk from me, but on the other hand, I am the one who is not able to shoot 4K, whenever he pleases... :-D

 

[John Caballero]

Impressive. This cameras produce outstanding still images in the first place. Then you add motion and you have outstanding images in motion. It will only get better. This companies will sell millions upon millions of dollars worth of these cameras as well as lenses for them. I knew they were not going to stand still and let Red alone in the innovation arena. Next year is going to be mighty interesting.

 

[liquidigital]

Well it was my intention to hang on to my RED reservation until I was in a better position to buy. This changed with the advent of for lack of a better word, "changing" RED policy. Certainly, I respect Jim and co.'s position to say the reservation had to be exercised on a time-line, it's his company. And on the boards, Jim himself pointed out to me, do you really need to own a RED ONE?

That got me thinking. I am very glad that I waited, and traditionally with technology I have always had a tendency to invest in equipment that six months down the road is subject to Moore's law. I mean really, why not rent?

But... if you already own the camera, don't waste energy wondering whether or not you made the right choice, enjoy what it can do and shoot your projects.

Now if you're a rental business, I can see why you might be upset, but this isn't RED's fault. They did spawn a revolution, and in turn the competition from other sources will be good for the consumer. Just rent the hell out of those RED ONEs while you can, because I think it will take a bit of time before Canon/Nikon can come up with the equivalent of a quick read-reset CMOS or Redcode.

Six months approximately. (kidding)

 

[Chosei Funahara]

Jonas,

Good point.
Smart people see what you have and they know the best.
It's all in your mind.
Trust your mind.

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Seriously guys, there are so many things that Canon or Nikon will need to do to even begin competing. Things to picture in your mind to see if you should really be worried about a DSLR, my thought is no, does canon have a good chance of making some great video camera based on a cmos sensor? of course, but just imagine for a second that they do come out with something that shoots raw at similar frame rates and resolutions as the RED, how much would it cost? My guess is at least 60k for body only, which puts it right up against Epic. Can you imagine showing up on set with a DSLR, how do you do handheld work with a focus puller? Have you seen the skew in the d90s footage? There is no genlocking, there is no HD-SDI output, no timecode, no XLR.

You've got at least another year before the RED One should either be traded up for EPIC, have a sensor upgrade, or keep it and just know that it's an awesome camera but that other things will eventually catch up with where RED was nearly 2 years ago with their sensor program.

I have been amazed at what Jim has pulled off in the past, I don't think he's been sleeping.

 

[Christopher Adams]

Red and others.

Red and others.

Also remember that the DSLR's will be at least to start with fairly mundane in their settings available. You won't see speed ramping and shooting raw data anytime soon. It just isn't the market they are targeting. There will still be things that Red's camera's will do that the dslr's won't. Don't give up on them yet. Red is just getting started! Also while these hybrids are attractive to a point they won't surpass a dedicated tool made for a specific purpose when it comes to the high end tasks. I'm not too worried. I went with RED to get away from what I considered Crappy HDV..and mediocre HD.
I think Jim and company will surprise us.

If history teaches us anything, it's a certainty that near-future cameras in the consumer price range will do everything the Red One does today and do it even better.

This does not eliminate the art and skill of the operator being necessary to make beautiful motion pictures, but the democratization of access to very high-quality/high-capability tools will result in many more people developing those talents.

Reviewing the impact of the SLR at hobbyist prices, there are now legions of advanced amateur photographers producing outstanding work. One should expect the same result from the emergence of the next generations of digital motion picture cameras available at modest prices.

While I expect we'll still be shooting with whatever our Reds become, we'll need more than great equipment to differentiate ourselves. Just as editing software such as Final Cut has put tremendous pressure on post houses, the affordable cameras of the future will challenge us to depend solely on our art and skill.

The coin of the new realm will be a broad range of expertise necessary to accomplish a successful production. Budgeting, casting, crewing, management, etc. to name a few.

I remember the conference room scene in 2001; the tiny camera that seemed so unlikely at the time may well be at hand. Perhaps not quite so small, the laws of physics being as stubborn as they are, but certainly a glimpse of things to come - and soon.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Steve Freebairn]

But... if you already own the camera, don't waste energy wondering whether or not you made the right choice, enjoy what it can do and shoot your projects.

Now if you're a rental business, I can see why you might be upset, but this isn't RED's fault. They did spawn a revolution, and in turn the competition from other sources will be good for the consumer. Just rent the hell out of those RED ONEs while you can, because I think it will take a bit of time before Canon/Nikon can come up with the equivalent of a quick read-reset CMOS or Redcode.

Six months approximately. (kidding)

Before the RED One came out, we had never rented cameras out, we bought the camera so that we could enjoy it and get better and have better looking images, renting has been a side benefit, but anyone that has actually tried renting their camera out (making sure they listen to what people in the area want) can probably tell you that it's been an awesome market. It's opened a lot of doors and helped us make a lot of contacts we otherwise wouldn't have had. It's helped people discover our talent and to get exposure.

There hasn't been anything better for our tiny little company, than getting the Red One. I'd be shocked if in 5 years, if you still had the exact same camera that got shipped this last year with no modifications, if you couldn't make pretty images that people would be amazed with.

Buy or Rent a RED One now, and then get an EPIC or rent one when it comes out.

 

[liquidigital]

Before the RED One came out, we had never rented cameras out, we bought the camera so that we could enjoy it and get better and have better looking images, renting has been a side benefit, but anyone that has actually tried renting their camera out (making sure they listen to what people in the area want) can probably tell you that it's been an awesome market. It's opened a lot of doors and helped us make a lot of contacts we otherwise wouldn't have had. It's helped people discover our talent and to get exposure.

There hasn't been anything better for our tiny little company, than getting the Red One. I'd be shocked if in 5 years, if you still had the exact same camera that got shipped this last year with no modifications, if you couldn't make pretty images that people would be amazed with.

Buy or Rent a RED One now, and then get an EPIC or rent one when it comes out.

That's awesome and encouraging news. If you got it, use it!

 

[Andrew M.]

I'm not sure either,
I'm just hoping that my RED's get at least 2 years out of them selves before I have to chuck them in the bin.
Your "Toy DSLR with video with the latitude of Vision 4 stock, 6K, 1 hr/CF card, great 4 channel audio, remote focus with killer assist options" may not be a just pipe dream in 12 months time.

Look, the problem is that to get any meaningful RAW out of the small factor camera like this, it takes speed or heat dissipation.

It boils down to the simple fact that we need new low power CMOS technology to be invented to squeeze so many processes (electrical transitions) to process RAW out of the camera or we need new very high speed interfaces that indirectly will produce more data, in turn you need more memory for recording. So this technology is between a rock and a hard place.

I do not believe that at current speeds we can deliver even good 1080p data without 20W of dissipation power. In best it will be very “hot” camera or it has to be 10 times faster, thus having 10 times more storage

 

[Mark Andersen]

Although Canon does have the power and technology to produce a true cinema camera and complete with Red. My opinon is that they never will. the simply don't care about such a small market. they want to create products for the masses and sell millions of units. Cinema gear is too specialized for Canon, it's not their market, plus they would only want to produce gear that used their own lenses. Cinematographers will always demand PL mounts and lens choices. Canon won't make it easy to take a Canon mount camera body and retrofit it for PL

 

[Leo Ticheli]

You can't shoot with any camera you are waiting for.

You can't shoot with Epic, Scarlet, or a future offering from Nikon or Canon.

You can shoot with Red One right now. Today. This minute.

I just had a client pop in and ask me to shoot an insert shot in my studio. No forewarning. No time for rental. Load up and shoot or miss the job.

Granted, this is not the usual way the business works, but short notice opportunities do happen.

Equally important to me is the total familiarly I have with my camera and accessories. It's difficult to achieve this kind of facility with the tools when you rent your camera.

Is the Red One a good buy today with the likely emergence of competitors at favorable prices?

You bet it is.

If you have the skills and a favorable market, you can make money with your Red One today and upgrade when the times comes.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Benjamin Rowland]

You can't shoot with any camera you are waiting for.

You can't shoot with Epic, Scarlet, or a future offering from Nikon or Canon.

You can shoot with Red One right now. Today. This minute.

I just had a client pop in and ask me to shoot an insert shot in my studio. No forewarning. No time for rental. Load up and shoot or miss the job.

Granted, this is not the usual way the business works, but short notice opportunities do happen.

Equally important to me is the total familiarly I have with my camera and accessories. It's difficult to achieve this kind of facility with the tools when you rent your camera.

Is the Red One a good buy today with the likely emergence of competitors at favorable prices?

You bet it is.

If you have the skills and a favorable market, you can make money with your Red One today and upgrade when the times comes.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

That's some good wisdom, Leo. I like how you think - very level-headed.

 

[Martin Jäger]

...big T.. i don't understand your concern - you're totally right! that's the natural way it goes! but what are you loosing?

think of you're purchasing a bus ticket, you wait at the bus station while suddenly a friend pops up with his car and gives you a ride...
instead of being worried about the unnecessary purchase of the ticket
you can also just be happy about meeting your friend and do the jurney together..

sounds like 1968 philosophy - but that's how i see it...

martin