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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

For those who are fed up with Apple...

Christoffer Glans

Christoffer Glans

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So, for those who just don't want to be pushed around by Apple's antiprofessional strategy here's something.

Avid and Premiere deal

Please, no Apple defenders now, this is for those who want's to move on, so I suggest you put your indoctrinated propaganda somewhere else.
 
This is not a defense of Apple, just a word of caution for all concerned.

Many people have expressed a distrust of Apple over the events surrounding the release of FCPX and doubts about what their plans are for the pro editing market. Those of you who are contemplating switching to products from Adobe and Avid should consider this:

Adobe actually, not probably, not seemingly, ACTUALLY killed Premiere on the Mac for several years. Yes, it's back and better than ever but that's as much of a reason to be wary of Adobe as anything Apple has done in the last two weeks, in my opinion. I realize no one cares what I think but it's worth mentioning anyway.

Avid, while not abandoning Mac products (as some early information suggested at the time), had plans to start leaning towards Windows NT and favoring that platform for film support in particular.

I have no idea what the future landscape of pro editing apps will look like but you have to understand that all of these companies are in business to make money, otherwise, they'd give their products away. As a result, they ALL make business decisions that leave certain users out in the cold from time to time.

If trust in the company that develops your NLE is truly the reason you're switching, you'd be wise to take this into account. All I'm suggesting is that you not be naive or angry enough to think that any other business is immune to looking after their bottom line or their very survival. If it were easy to do, we wouldn't have lost so many NLEs along the way.*

If switching is the right move for you, all I ask is you do something kick-ass with whatever you choose.



*Someone probably already mentioned this but catering to both prosumers and pros in the same app could ultimately work to our advantage. Realizing a delicate balance has to be struck between ease of use and power/control, more users means more dollars for development of features that go beyond what the casual user needs now but may one day grow into. It might also help keep costs down because the company doesn't have to rely on and justify developing solely for the relatively small user base of high end pros.
 
10 Years that AVID did only improve their expensive hardware network, and didn't get their 1990's mediacomposer philosophy emproved. They could be inspired by AVID DS wich is really great but nearly abandonned the development.

Hope FCPX will be the wakeup call for AVID.

Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
10 Years that AVID did only improve their expensive hardware network, and didn't get their 1990's mediacomposer philosophy emproved. They could be inspired by AVID DS wich is really great but nearly abandonned the development.

Hope FCPX will be the wakeup call for AVID.

Pat
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Media Composer today is a very powerful and stable system. Avid DS is about to die because Media Composer keeps getting better and soon might take over to be an Online platform as well. And saying that FCPX will be a wakeup call for Avid? What the hell are you talking about? FCPX is no way near a professional tool, Avid is all about it and there's nothing for Avid to "wake up" about. I'm actually more scared that Avid will stop making improvements now that they don't need to compete with FCP, but then again we have Adobe Premiere so I think those two will be the "versus" companies over the next ten years.

Sorry but your post sounds like you haven't used the Avid or Premiere of today. It sounds like the usual "I used Avid 9 years ago and it sucks" that I keep hearing from Apple-indoctrinated FCP users.

Avid is right now the only system (excluding FCP7 and Premiere is not very good as a unity setup) that can both work in a unity sharing projects and sharing through EDL's, OMF's, MXF's and XML's. It has the ability to work with premiere, after effects etc. and for the sound designers using ProTools (there's a lot of them using it), it's from the same company so sharing between the sound designer and editor is a non-issue.

Again, as the podcast I posted in another thread, the underwear editors will never get why Avid is so good. Only when they get to a place where they need to collaborate will they understand it.

And Patrick, you do know that Avid works with the inexpensive MXO2mini and the Aja I/O together with coming support of others in the next releases? So please, read up the correct facts before saying something like this.
 
Brian Boyer said:
Adobe actually, not probably, not seemingly, ACTUALLY killed Premiere on the Mac for several years. Yes, it's back and better than ever but that's as much of a reason to be wary of Adobe as anything Apple has done in the last two weeks, in my opinion. I realize no one cares what I think but it's worth mentioning anyway.
Click to expand...

While that's true, there were several factors and reasons which led to that, many of which I would agree with, as did many pros at the time. But those are factors and conditions that do not exist today. Likewise, Final Cut was very strong for many years. The latest version is an incomplete and incapable turd. The previous version is nearly 4 years old, with a minor update (that they charged money for) about 2 years ago. Anyone setting up a new edit bay that needs a new seat of FCS can't buy one without paying a huge premium now on eBay or Craigslist or elsewhere. Apple has discontinued FCS3/FCP7. They have pulled it from their stores and have kindly asked their authorized dealers to return any copies they still have. Most are not though, they're jacking up the price and selling the last few they have. And buy it now, you're going to run into OS support issues in the near future. The software has been abandoned or EOL'd. When OSX 10.7.1 ships in 3 months, if it breaks FCP7 Apple isn't going to fix it.

Any way you look at it, what is in the past remains the past and this is where we are now. Any serious professional who deals with multiple clients' demands on a daily basis won't be established on a single NLE system. It just can't happen in today's world. And adopting a new system in the way of Premiere or Avid or other, has nothing to do with abandoning FCP and there's no reason you must abandon it. Think of it as diversifying your software library and skill set. I'm always confused about the resistance to Premiere. So many people have access to it or the ability to buy it cheaply. Most pros in our industry have and use Photoshop, which gets you a discount on most of the new production bundles. Or if you already have a production bundle, if it's the media/video collection or the master collection, then you already have Premiere. I'm usually amazed at how many people I recommend Premiere to, only to find out that they've had it all along and have never installed it or never opened it to try it.

As far as R3D workflows go, Premiere CS5.5 is excellent. Adobe is one of the only two companies on the low cost end of the market (the other being Sony/ SonicFoundry with Vegas Pro), who are doing R3D right.

*Someone probably already mentioned this but catering to both prosumers and pros in the same app could ultimately work to our advantage. Realizing a delicate balance has to be struck between ease of use and power/control, more users means more dollars for development of features that go beyond what the casual user needs now but may one day grow into. It might also help keep costs down because the company doesn't have to rely on and justify developing solely for the relatively small user base of high end pros.
Click to expand...

Er... Adobe figured this one out a few years ago. Premiere is kicking ass for a reason. Then again, Apple hasn't really slashed any costs for the new version. FCS3 up to the point of being discontinued was $999. Now we can buy FCPX for $300 and Motion for another $100. That's 40% of the cost of the prior suite, but there's no new version of Color, no new version of DVDSP... I'm not sure they're really doing us any favors here. DVDSP was all but worthless anyway. I always liked it and it is arguably the best DVD authoring tool out there for under $20K, but the inability to author Blu-Ray or other interactive formats has demoted it to near-worthless status for us here.

I have FCS3 installed on my workstations. It will stay there as long as its compatible. While I cut mostly in Premiere these days, I'm not abandoning any other toolset.

I've always had to wonder about these people who work exclusively in FCP? Don't you guys feel restricted? The backlash over FCPX was pretty severe and I have no doubt that Apple will eventually get it right. But they have left a gaping hole in the market. The hole has been there for 2 years, just the FCP crowd didn't see it unless they ventured over to a different tool set to test the waters. Now the whole is wide-open and will be for several months at least. And that bottle of lame-sauce they poured on us (FCPX FAQ) didn't address all the issues, nor did it instill any confidence that they are working diligently to resolve anything. Read to me like they were going to leave it up to third-party developers to flesh out the pro functionality... At a later date, when the SDK is made available and at whatever cost these developers decide to charge for it. To me, that seems like a very poor way to attract (or keep) a pro user base.
 
Jeff, the thing is that there IS an Apple indoctrination, almost on a religious scale. Some are defending Apple and FCPX like they were on a lawyer payroll for Apple.
I do not know why this is, maybe they are in love with the design and "ease of use" that I agree Apple is indeed having. But in a professional point of view I have never understood this "bond" to Apple.
EVEN at a big post production facility that is based upon FCP7 have I received critique for using Avid instead of FCP7 because it's a little trickier for them in the rest of the post workflow.

I am absolutely stunned that there are so many, in the right terms, fanboys at such high positions in the business who care so much about FCP and Apple that they give up any professional insight into what is actually a good workflow.

As I described in another thread, it's also scary what they are doing with the OSX. They said that Lion will be the last in the current OS form. Looking at how they are moving more toward an iOS form how will this effect future releases of Avid and Premiere? Apple might close off the ability to use a Mac professionally at all.

So why in the name of whatever deity you believe in would real professionals look upon Apple as a great source of technology for their work?

Actually, to stretch it even further; if you are truly a professional in the form of an editor, then you NEED TO KNOW YOUR SYSTEM. There are too many editorial pretenders out there who think they are editors because they have FCP. It's like if a regular guy buys a hammer and claims he's a professional carpenter because he has it.
FCP, Avid, Premiere are TOOLS and the system, either a Mac or a PC is the entire toolbox. You need to know how to set up the system, how to calibrate monitors. You need to know what hardware is in there and what you can invest in to make it better.
I'm of course talking about editors who has their own gear, but isn't that what this is all about. No one in this part of the forum who discuss shortcomings or defends FCPX is really here because their post production facility bought it and they don't have a choice. They are in here because they invest in their own system.

So in that case, what is actually so good about Mac compared to a PC?

MAC:

Positive:
- Stability of the OS.
- Good connections and hardware infrastructure.
- No need for anyone to be a technician.

Negative:
- Closed off system where you never know how the next update is going to effect your stability and support.
- You cannot upgrade your hardware very much.
- Expensive.
- Hardware support is limited.


PC:

Positive:
- Stability of the OS (if tweaked)
- Good connections and hardware infrastructure (if you know how to set up your own system)
- You can choose whatever hardware you like and what is best for your type of work.
- Hardware support is endless.
- Great upgrade capabilities.
- Best hardware at cheaper price then Apple.

Negative:
- Major and minor bugs if system isn't tweaked correct.
- Connectability is not as good as on Mac and the "mount"-"unmount" may not be as smooth.
- Errors that are hard to determine the cause of.
- Connections to other hardware may be problematic (system isn't optimized on the same level as if the hardware and software is developed together as in Mac's).
- Trouble with collaboration with Apple fanboys (because they sometime won't accept that you work on a PC and will just don't work with your files/project because of it)


That last negative note has been true for me many times and it's such a laugh every time.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
J
So in that case, what is actually so good about Mac compared to a PC?

MAC:

Positive:
- Stability of the OS.
- Good connections and hardware infrastructure.
- No need for anyone to be a technician.

Negative:
- Closed off system where you never know how the next update is going to effect your stability and support.
- You cannot upgrade your hardware very much.
- Expensive.
- Hardware support is limited.
Click to expand...


You've completely overlooked perhaps the single biggest positive for larger shops:

- It's BSD Unix.

For many facilities - including the one I work in - this goes far beyond simple stability and connections, and it goes considerably deeper than "no need for anyone to be a technician." What it means is that the command line is available, and all common Unix utilities are available, allowing for standard scripting, along with inherent support for things like Python, standard networking protocols, and an awful lot of other things. In a mixed Linux/Mac environment, this means a lot, because you can use things like rsync for backups and file checking, you can use things like grep and awk for very fast, robust, and flexible text processing (ever try to make a list of every source file referenced in an EDL, sort it, and save it to a file? You can do that in about a half a line of code using awk), and you can access an enormous amount of open source tools, including web servers, databases, and countless other things. If you walked into our facility, you would see at least one terminal window open on almost every Mac in the building at almost all times, and almost always doing something more efficiently than it would be with GUI tools.

THAT is the primary attraction of the Mac for many high end users.
 
Yes, it wasn't a critique on mac, I love it too, but I'm not so sure about having a Mac as the power machine for post. At least not when the future of it's OS seem to be somewhat unstable.

But isn't there PC Unix systems as well? Or am I misinformed?
 
M Most said:
It's BSD Unix.
Click to expand...

Our Red transcoding workflow, our dailies generation (including automatic timecode-based audio syncing) and our offline/online Red workflow -- not to mention more mundane things like our entire backup routine -- all rely heavily on custom shell scripts and Ruby scripts I've written. One of the reasons I'm not too worried about FCP X workflow is because I know, whatever sort of sequence exporting Apple gives us, I'll probably be able to throw together a script to convert it into something I can bring into Resolve over a weekend.

We're also tooling up to launch some web-based services, and for integrated web design/development I've found the ability to run Photoshop on the same machine as a Unix command-line to be utterly indispensable.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
But isn't there PC Unix systems as well? Or am I misinformed?
Click to expand...

Yes, but all your apps will be over on Windows. What's so valuable about the Mac is that you have a first-rate graphical operating system with wide support from mainstream applications... that also offers Unix features in the same environment. As far as I know even Red never released the Linux tools they were promising for a while a couple of years ago.
 
Christoffer - the more I see you go on your relentless witch hunt against Apple, going so far as to call them a "s$@t company" (really? last I checked they were the #1 tech company on earth right now) and what is clearly the best, most stable operating system (which by the way is being RADICALLY improved with Lion) as "unstable" ... the more I think you have some strange personal vendetta and perhaps even an imbalance of some sort.

Yes, we get that FCPX is missing features ... yes, we get that this offends you .... and yes, we get that this affects your business and livelihood. How many times can you keep saying the same thing before it gets old?

Geez man. Chill out. You don't like Apple, don't buy their stuff. It's as simple as that.

And if you need an outlet for your seemingly endless frustration -- start an Apple hate blog. You might even be able to make a few bucks to compensate for the horrendous amount of money that Apple (and FCPX) seems to be costing you right now ....

Sorry to be so blunt, but I would guess even those who agree with you (which I partly do) are skipping your posts that essentially say the same thing over and over again with slightly different words.
 
Brian Boyer said:
This is not a defense of Apple, just a word of caution for all concerned.

Many people have expressed a distrust of Apple over the events surrounding the release of FCPX and doubts about what their plans are for the pro editing market. Those of you who are contemplating switching to products from Adobe and Avid should consider this:

Adobe actually, not probably, not seemingly, ACTUALLY killed Premiere on the Mac for several years. Yes, it's back and better than ever but that's as much of a reason to be wary of Adobe as anything Apple has done in the last two weeks, in my opinion. I realize no one cares what I think but it's worth mentioning anyway.

Avid, while not abandoning Mac products (as some early information suggested at the time), had plans to start leaning towards Windows NT and favoring that platform for film support in particular.

I have no idea what the future landscape of pro editing apps will look like but you have to understand that all of these companies are in business to make money, otherwise, they'd give their products away. As a result, they ALL make business decisions that leave certain users out in the cold from time to time.

If trust in the company that develops your NLE is truly the reason you're switching, you'd be wise to take this into account. All I'm suggesting is that you not be naive or angry enough to think that any other business is immune to looking after their bottom line or their very survival. If it were easy to do, we wouldn't have lost so many NLEs along the way. ...
Click to expand...

This is absolute FUD as far as Avid is concerned. You are talking about a decision made by Avid, during the Windows NT days, to not support a version of the Mac OS that they believed would be short lived and quickly replaced. It was a stupid decision by Avid, but it's also ancient history.

Avid has a very clear policy that Mac and Windows versions are to be equal in terms of features. There is absolutely no bias for one or the other. And there is not one inkling that Avid is planning to drop or cripple Mac OS support. Actually the vast majority of MC demos and promotional and materials I've seen have MC running on Macs.

To imply that there is any risk of Avid abandoning the Mac platform is utter nonsense.
 
Peter Moretti said:
This is absolute FUD as far as Avid is concerned. You are talking about a decision made by Avid, during the Windows NT days, to not support a version of the Mac OS that they believed would be short lived and quickly replaced. It was a stupid decision by Avid, but it's also ancient history.

Avid has a very clear policy that Mac and Windows versions are to be equal in terms of features. There is absolutely no bias for one or the other. And there is not one inkling that Avid is planning to drop or cripple Mac OS support. Actually the vast majority of MC demos and promotional and materials I've seen have MC running on Macs.

To imply that there is any risk of Avid abandoning the Mac platform is utter nonsense.
Click to expand...

Oh my! Peter, relax.

FUD? That's NOT my style. The fact is, it happened, as you acknowledge. Where did you learn to debate? Is ignoring the entire remainder of a post the only way you guys know how to make a point? My assertion was that, for whatever reason, be it financial or practical, if it's no longer in its best interest as a company, said company will drop Mac development and support. This has proven to be true in hundreds of cases. The ironic part is Apple feels the same way! At one time, Adobe felt this way about Premiere. The same goes for Avid. They were on version 8 when they made that decision (pressured by Microsoft, I might add). That's not FUD it's FACT. It's true of any company, really. My point was there's no real certainty that any of the players will be around in the future, whether that be by design or circumstance (I'm pouring out a little of my 40 oz. for my homies Alias, Wavefront, Softimage and Discreet Logic, though their legacies live on). If Avid makes you feel better than Apple or Adobe, by all means go with them. I never said otherwise. I was speaking mainly to the people who now claim they have trust issues with Apple. Trust is a tricky thing in this business. All of these companies have given us reason for pause at some point (again, ask RED how many people bolted because they were tired of waiting or the price of Scarlet went up). I'm sure, at the time, people felt Avid was a pretty solid choice at version 8 when Avid said, "You know what? Screw it. We're going with NT."

Haven't you been paying attention to what Christoffer has been implying? "Looking at how they are moving more toward an iOS form how will this effect future releases of Avid and Premiere? Apple might close off the ability to use a Mac professionally at all." That's his quote. In his scenario, regardless of what Avid and Adobe say today, they may be forced to abandon the Mac platform. I don't see you telling him he's stating "utter nonsense".

As I've mentioned in other posts concerning FCPX, Adobe and Avid are fine choices. You're trying to make me out to be arguing against using Avid when all I'm doing in this case is addressing trust issues by commenting on historical events for those who may benefit from the perspective. Past is prologue, or so they say.
 
Last edited:
Brain,

The point you're making is ludicrous. There IS NO business reason for Avid to drop Mac support. It's as simple as that.

I'd say more than fifty percent of the professional post houses I've been in LA are Mac based. And b/c you can run Unix scripts in the Mac OS, people love the Mac OS and hardware, and other excellent software programs run on the Mac OS (including FCP) this isn't changing. You are asserting that IF it made business sense for Avid they will drop Mac support. But there IS NO business reason for Avid to drop Mac support, b/c the very clients that Avid sells to are heavily invested in Mac.

You're quite simply raising an issue that doesn't exist.
 
Peter Moretti said:
This is absolute FUD as far as Avid is concerned. You are talking about a decision made by Avid, during the Windows NT days, to not support a version of the Mac OS that they believed would be short lived and quickly replaced.
Click to expand...

But one can make the case that a similarly unusual set of circumstances lead to Apple's decision to scrap and rewrite Final Cut Pro. This decision was ultimately a consequence of Apple moving to a new OS with a new API a decade earlier (something Apple has done once since 1984), Apple introducing a new media architecture (the first since 1991), and the emergence of a fundamentally new processing technology (the programmable GPU), only the second such new technology to emerge during the PC era (if you count the addition of floating point units to mainstream processors as the first).

The truth is, Apple is not generally as unreliable as they may seem this week, Avid is not as generally unreliable as they seemed in April of 1999, and Adobe is not generally as unreliable as they seemed in 2003, when they scrapped 'classic' Premiere and shipped, by all accounts, an extremely buggy (and Windows-only) Premiere Pro 1.0. And looked at the other way around: no vendor is entirely reliable over very long timespans. Anyone jumping to Adobe or Avid because they believe Apple has demonstrated itself to be 'too risky' as a vendor should consider that the high-end pro video market is not fundamentally more important to Adobe's bottom line than it is to Apple's (and Adobe has outright canceled major apps in the past), that Avid as a company is on substantially weaker financial footing than Adobe or Apple, and that the fact that FCP just went though a major shakeup means it probably isn't due for another one for a good long time. Anyone claiming it's clear which choice provides the least long-term risk is trying to sell you something. Possibly literally.
 
Chris,

I certainly agree that every company, platform and NLE has risks associated with it. All I'm saying is that for anyone to claim a valid concern with using MC is Avid dropping the Mac platform is simply absurd. It makes absolutely no sense from any angle. And Avid has been vigilant that both PC and Mac platforms move in lock step. Even to the extent that they disabled some PC features that mistakenly made it past Beta so as not to get into a situation where one platform was more capable than the other.

For someone to point to what happened back in the Win NT days when Macs were PowerPC based is ludicrous. Back around that time, Apple was experimenting with allowing third parties build Mac computers. Should people be told in 2011 "because past is prologue" that they should hold off on buying a new Apple computer b/c there is good chance a clone will be available for half the price? There are concerns that are legitimate and there are concerns that are conjured up. Avid dropping Mac support is the latter.
 
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