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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

For the future, i had a thought

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Brennan Klensch

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first off, congrats everyone at RED for the huge a accomplishments with Epic including the Spiderman and Hobbit announcments!

Okay, so, on with my post. As a photographer I've been obsessed with finding a great camera and, leaving all video debates aside, the 5d and 5d mark ii are probably the best stills camera i have found for full frames and for under $5k. However, I wanted a compact with great looking stuff and while the leica m9 and the leica x1 were my cameras of choice, i can't even come close to just buying, especially since the money i am saving for a stills camera was going first towards a 5D mark ii.

However, I came across the sigma dp1 and dp2 and they give AMAZING pictures in their RAW modes. Very very filmic. Come to find out it comes from (mostly) their foveon sensor which captures colors in layers like film instead of in Bayer like most (good cameras too, not complaining, the 5d is a bayer). I have yet to see a point and shoot give such amazing, filmic quality.

I know there has been hashing upon rehashing of "why are Bayer patterns neccesary" etc...however, i would like to know, has/will Red ever consider doing something more like a Foveon sensor. To my eye, they've done a great job

Anyway, like i said, congrats! I'm super stoked for Epic and Scarlet!
 
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thanks! any ideas as to why that is (the 5 fps max)? I guess i should say a foveon-type sensor, as the foveon people probably have their own reasons for not having better fps. The sensor seems to be catching on slowly but surely. Both Panasonic and Sony have grabbed patents on a similar design and method as the foveon. I'm just saying, almost everyone agrees, there is something truly unique and special about the images coming off the foveon sensors.

I understand there would be other issues to resolve but I mean, cmon, we're talking about Epic team here :)
 
Brennan Klensch said:
thanks! any ideas as to why that is (the 5 fps max)? I guess i should say a foveon-type sensor, as the foveon people probably have their own reasons for not having better fps. The sensor seems to be catching on slowly but surely. Both Panasonic and Sony have grabbed patents on a similar design and method as the foveon. I'm just saying, almost everyone agrees, there is something truly unique and special about the images coming off the foveon sensors.

I understand there would be other issues to resolve but I mean, cmon, we're talking about Epic team here :)
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I recall being intrigued by the Foveon sensor some ten or more years ago when I first heard about it; a time when i was more interested in still photography than motion. To me, it doesn't seem to have caught on all that much so I might agree with the "slowly" part but not so much the "surely." :Yawn:

It never seemed to get off the ground so I bought a Canon DSLR and have invested in a couple other video cameras along the way. I sort of forgot about the Foveon. Have they really made any inroads in recent times? With more than a decade to develop, I'd have thought they'd have made some sort a mark by now, if they were ever going to.:huh:
 
They are. Foveon was bought by Sigma and their flagship is arriving (supposedly) in February. It's the SD1, after the SD9, SD10, SD14, and SD15.

The things with the foveon has always been that the resolution is "low" but that's relative seeing as the resolution is visibly on par with about 10 MP cameras because each layer as about 4.5 MP. So, it's a controversy because, would you say that is the final MP count, or would you say the three of them together, equaling more like 15 MP. While it doesn't quite look like a 15MP camera, it certainly comes very close, and it doesn't artifact (at least not in the way we're used to seeing it.

So this SD1 has 15. something MP per layer, so your talking a 45MP camera! the nice thing is with layers you don't HAVE to pack the pixels. The photosites can be much larger. Anyway there you have it. to me, this is definitely still something that should be "sure" instead of just "slow" Hopefully with the SD1 it will be
 
Just, trying to get a little further into some ideas here, 5fps max on a full frame foveon= uselessness for sure for video, however, what if it weren't full frame? What if it was 2/3" or S35? And what if the team behind it had video in mind instead of still photography (sigma people have no reason to really start getting into the gig now, except that they doa total overhaul of their lack of video in their cameras, including their new flagship the SD1 45 (or 15, depending on how you look at it) MP DSLR.

My point in all this is I'd love to see the tech being implemented in these cameras in the hands of people who actually want to advance CINEMA. Which, BTW, looking at some of the behind the scenes of EPIC 0007, with the screen cap and projection, i can't begin to tell you all how close to messing myself i actually am
 
Brennan Klensch said:
Just, trying to get a little further into some ideas here, 5fps max on a full frame foveon= uselessness for sure for video, however, what if it weren't full frame? What if it was 2/3" or S35? And what if the team behind it had video in mind instead of still photography (sigma people have no reason to really start getting into the gig now, except that they doa total overhaul of their lack of video in their cameras, including their new flagship the SD1 45 (or 15, depending on how you look at it) MP DSLR.

My point in all this is I'd love to see the tech being implemented in these cameras in the hands of people who actually want to advance CINEMA. Which, BTW, looking at some of the behind the scenes of EPIC 0007, with the screen cap and projection, i can't begin to tell you all how close to messing myself i actually am
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Just curious... if the EPIC footage looks so good to you, MX footage intercuts perfectly with film, you have more resolution and all the frame rates you need... why exactly do you want a Foveon sensor that can't do all these things? I'm not sure there is one advantage to point to. Maybe I missed something? We looked at that sensor technology 6 years ago and discarded it for all the reasons that Graeme mentioned. I haven't seen anything new in the development of that sensor technology. They did have a great marketing story though...

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Just curious... if the EPIC footage looks so good to you, MX footage intercuts perfectly with film, you have more resolution and all the frame rates you need... why exactly do you want a Foveon sensor that can't do all these things? I'm not sure there is one advantage to point to. Maybe I missed something? We looked at that sensor technology 6 years ago and discarded it for all the reasons that Graeme mentioned. I haven't seen anything new in the development of that sensor technology. They did have a great marketing story though...

Jim
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Simply thinking in terms of how everyone here is asked to think by you guys....the future. Now, if you're saying there's no possible way to take that technology anywhere, good, then that's the end of the discussion, but the reason the foveon caused any waves to begin with was because it had a quality about it that was different and some would argue better than a Bayer pattern. I'm not saying it's not effective and I'm not saying it's anywhere close to an epic or that i'm dissatisfied with any of these things, but seeing as we all here have our eyes set on the future, you most of all and the title of my post is "for the future i had a thought," and it could be said that if that kind of technology could be pushed farther that it could compete with a Bayer image, then I see no reason not to pose the question. it has nothing to do with any kind of dissatisfaction. I'm just as excited and pumped and thrilled beyond belief about all you guys have accomplished, but you got there because you looked foward, that's all i'm attempting to do. Tell me that's impossible and, of all people, i'll believe you guys
 
The thing about the Foveon technology, from purely casual observation, is that they made a splash several (8-10?) years ago with claims of potentially superior images and a better sensor, and then disappeared. At the time I was getting into still photography a little more heavily and switching over to digital. I was pretty intrigued. But then it just seemed to go nowhere. Unless I am mistaken, it has never taken off and there is little reason to expect that to change in the near future. Seems like perhaps the development just hit a wall. Maybe the Foveon people are just really could at operating in a "stealth" mode. :undecided:
 
Terry VerHaar said:
The thing about the Foveon technology, from purely casual observation, is that they made a splash several (8-10?) years ago with claims of potentially superior images and a better sensor, and then disappeared. At the time I was getting into still photography a little more heavily and switching over to digital. I was pretty intrigued. But then it just seemed to go nowhere. Unless I am mistaken, it has never taken off and there is little reason to expect that to change in the near future. Seems like perhaps the development just hit a wall. Maybe the Foveon people are just really could at operating in a "stealth" mode. :undecided:
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haha no i mean everyone's right they certainly did take a dive and for good reason, but it was also a general consensus that the images were truly unique and very organic, very filmic, and that was several years ago. I'm interested with the Sigma SD1, wether it hits in February or not, as far as the image quality goes, because they're going from 5 MP per layer to 15MP per layer, so, should be interesting

My whole point is that yes, exactly, the tech grew stagnant because Sigma and Foveon are just now starting to try and advance it, but that doesn't mean it ISN'T possible, at least, i haven't been told that yet from the qualified people :) But at this point, if the images coming off of their dp1 and dp2 series point and shoots were at least coming close to if not superior to a lot of the prosumer, heck, even pro market cameras, then why is it considered a "dead" or "pointless" technology. To me it just says, "forgotten" technology. That doesn't mean it can't be made into something amazing.

Bottom line: At the end of that road, I'd like to see what a 5k image from a "foveon-type" sensor would look like. This is taking into account how far RED has taken the Bayer pattern and pushed it to INSANE limits and i love every minute of it, but again, i'm just wondering what that same team could do should they ever improve upon the Foveon technology? Am I coming across as a villain, troll, or hater here? I'm exactly the opposite, in fact, that's WHY i even bring it up
 
My last thought on the matter - it would hard to believe that RED didn't evaluate all the promising technology that existed in 2005 (and since) as they developed the RED ONE followed by the Epic and the Scarlet. That says to me that they probably gave Foveon enough of a look to know it didn't have the promise to do what they wanted. I am not saying they necessarily had a formal evaluation, but Jim did bring together some of the most knowledgeable and competent people in their respective disciplines to form the RED development team, so I doubt that anything like this would have been missed.

Of course, I may be wrong on all counts and the future is Foveon, but somehow... :001_rolleyes:
 
hahaha no no i mean i really do get it, i i really do. I'm sure they did. I'm just saying, even Jim said, they wrote it off six years ago, and six years ago he also said they didn't know what they were doing. I'm saying, they've grown tremendously with their abilities to adapt, overcome, and create something so impressive and massive and overwhelming that I'm saying, what would it look like if THAT team, the 2011 RED team who put together Epic, took on the Foveon technology and applied it. it may very well not be any better, but i doubt that. All technologies can be pushed, this one I have a hard time believing would be any exception
 
Brennan Klensch said:
Bottom line: At the end of that road, I'd like to see what a 5k image from a "foveon-type" sensor would look like. This is taking into account how far RED has taken the Bayer pattern and pushed it to INSANE limits and i love every minute of it, but again, i'm just wondering what that same team could do should they ever improve upon the Foveon technology? Am I coming across as a villain, troll, or hater here? I'm exactly the opposite, in fact, that's WHY i even bring it up
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No Brennan, you're just approaching the camera maker and trying to dictate what technology he should use or invest on, like you knew better. Saying for them to put aside tech X, invested and improved over years and start investing on Y, not even proprietary tech that maybe is highly unsuitable for motion (as already stated by their engineers).

Or perhaps you're a super tech engineer and knows better than everyone from RED, who knows?

So yeah... You're not coming off as hater, just someone very very clueless. :willy_nilly:
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
No Brennan, you're just approaching the camera maker and trying to dictate what technology he should use or invest on, like you knew better. Saying for them to put aside tech X, invested and improved over years and start investing on Y, not even proprietary tech that maybe is highly unsuitable for motion (as already stated by their engineers).

Or perhaps you're a super tech engineer and knows better than everyone from RED, who knows?

So yeah... You're not coming off as hater, just someone very very clueless. :willy_nilly:
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wow, maybe you should take a look at my first post as I've repeated several several times, it is a question posed, nothing more. An idea. Perhaps if you weren't such a suck up to the red team, you may be able to utter at least one independent thought instead of saying what you think they all want to hear.

I'm well aware of my shortcomings, a lesson you should probably learn

Or did I just accuse you of being a mouthpiece when you weren't? Kinda sucks doesn't it?
 
Another way to approach this would be to do a search before you post. (OK - I lied about what was to be my last thought!)

Just for fun, I did a simple search of the word Foveon and got 56 hits dating all the way back to 2007. And no, I wasn't curious enough to read them all, but that shouldn't stop you. :mellow:
 
hhahaha thank you very much, and thank you for your kindness, always appreciated
 
Brennan Klensch said:
wow, maybe you should take a look at my first post as I've repeated several several times, it is a question posed, nothing more. An idea. Perhaps if you weren't such a suck up to the red team, you may be able to utter at least one independent thought instead of saying what you think they all want to hear.

I'm well aware of my shortcomings, a lesson you should probably learn

Or did I just accuse you of being a mouthpiece when you weren't? Kinda sucks doesn't it?
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I completely missed the tone of your message and my post ended up sounding harsher than it was in my head.

Please disregard.
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
I completely missed the tone of your message and my post ended up sounding harsher than it was in my head.

Please disregard.
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I appreciate that man, thank you. my apologies for getting upset. I've misinterpreted things in the past and I should always consider this. But you're apology means a lot, thank you
 
Brennan - I have thought the same thing. I own an SD14 and DP1 and I GET it. They have a sharpness, saturation and depth that is very natural.

I do love the cyan skies and natural skin tones although too many folks push the saturation too much.

As you know - the sigma cams do have their problems though.

Can take seconds to write the data from one shot !!!! ( almost forget sports ) and don't get me started on the locking up issues. Sigma photo pro can also be slow and bring a modest computer to it's knees. But it is worth it IMHO.

Not everyone does get it though and I guess it is a niche product in my eyes. If such a video cam existed I would have probably looked at it.Bayer is here to stay - however as you say - Sony have gone in this direction......says something

Best wishes
 
Henry! It's crazy that you happened to be the one to comment on my post. I had just seen your videos on vimeo recently when i was trying to get an education on HD/SDI type of things and some of BlackMagic's stuff and it looked great. I'd love to take a peek at your book!

But anyway, yeah, after doing the search and reading all graham and others had said about it, i really do understand why they DIDN'T go for it. However, like I had said, I'd love to see what the technology could potentially bring about IF someone had the same money, time, and passion the RED team does, which, is probably & unfortunately, not likely.

However, I did speak about the SD1, sigma's yet to be released camera that has 15MP per layer, so, technically, it's a 45 MP. I've just seen the first, "offcial" photo from the camera, and when you expand it to it's original size in the "see all sizes" options, it really loses no detail, whatsoever. You can see all of the dog's extremely fine hairs and such http://www.flickr.com/photos/isiahonline/5432797344/

Like I said, it's certainly a personal preference and dream and I'm more than completely stoked about the Epic coming, it's just, the Dp's and the SD's produce something that is just undeniably organic and film like
 
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