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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

For $15,000 - Red 18:50 + 50:150 *OR* Ziess Standard Prime Set?

Evin Grant said:
I think I purchased the last few T2.1s from VP. I managed to put together a bastard 6 lens set (16,24,32,50,85,100) for 20K.
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Evin, Have you noticed any vignette problems with the T2.1's ?
I've seen it on a Pro35 P+S - I think the image size is the same, Super35 ?
 
BASSAM MSSALATIE said:
vignette problems it is not coming from the lenses it is coming from the
rotating ground glass in your Pro35 P+S :angry03:
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Nope,
this has been discussed many times by Stephen Williams and me among others, and though it is much more noticable with Pro 35 with the 28 and 32 mm lenses it has to do with the T2.1 lenses (especially the 28 and 32) called portholing. If you watch it on a scope they look terrible, however in general one will not find big problems with these lenses which can not be solved in post. In greenscreen studios or white limbos it is another story. Hereby a screenshot of the 32mm on a white testbench.

Cheers

Mick van Rossum NSC
 
I kind of feel a bit lost on the Red lens choices...new glass...hard to know if they will be a better option without testing them or having them in you hand...at least you know what youre getting if you go with familiar glass.
 
Just my two cents, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the RED glass. They may be zooms and less expensive options, but the 18-50 has definitely exceeded my expectations.
 
Häakon said:
Just my two cents, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the RED glass. They may be zooms and less expensive options, but the 18-50 has definitely exceeded my expectations.
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I know it's apples to oranges, but how does the Red zoom compare to Arri T/2's?
 
Häakon said:
Just my two cents, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the RED glass. They may be zooms and less expensive options, but the 18-50 has definitely exceeded my expectations.
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Häakon,

Would you mind offering some details?

What expectations did you have, and how were they met or exceeded?

-Thor
 
Thor Wixom said:
Häakon,

Would you mind offering some details?

What expectations did you have, and how were they met or exceeded?

-Thor
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Hi Thor,

Sorry for the delay in getting a response to you; I've been unbelievably busy the last two weeks.

I guess I just didn't have high expectations overall for a $6,000 cine lens - one that's a zoom, no less. I was prepared to accept a moderate-to-high level of breathing and the possibility of visible chromatic aberration in edges with high contrast. I wasn't sure how much resolution it would effectively be able to resolve and if I would really want it in my kit at all, to be honest. The only reason I purchased it was because the price was very good and I absolutely wanted to have glass for my camera from day one. PL-mount lens prices are currently going through the roof; even mediocre sets are selling for tens of thousands of dollars. So I figured that I'd take a chance and give RED the benefit of the doubt... they have yet to let me down thus far.

What I found was that the lens is extremely sharp, I rarely (if ever) see any hint of CA in my shots, and although it does breathe slightly, the magnitude is much less than I thought a lens at this price would display (and much less than other more expensive lenses do!).

I don't have a lot more to say but that I am seriously considering getting the 50-150mm zoom when it is released instead of the prime set as I had originally planned as I love the look of this lens and the freedom that comes with shooting on "variable primes." I wouldn't sacrifice quality for convenience alone, but in this case I feel like I get ample amounts of both.

Get one, you won't be dissapointed.
 
P.S. - Test out any lens before you buy it, especially a set of lenses that may be 20 years old (or more!). The Zeiss standard primes I've used with RED have a nice look to them, but aren't as sharp, breathe a lot more than the RED lens does, and weren't designed to be used with a digital sensor. I'm not saying that the RED lens is the ultimate lens ever, but I would take it over the equivalent range of Zeiss standard primes.
 
Häakon,

Thank you very much for the feedback.

I got to play with the 18-50 at the Rivetal Rentals open house in Orem, Utah.

At the time, I found the breathing to be acceptable, and I liked the close focus, and the lens seemed to be sharp. Plus, the price is definately good compared to other cine glass.

I had second thoughts, though, when I started playing with the Canon L series lenses about a week ago. The 16-35 has virtually no breathing at both ends of the focal range, and the 24-70 has just a hair more. The 70-200 has noticeable breathing when going from one end of the focus to the other, but it seemed to my memory to be less than the 18-50.

With cine glass going through the roof, I've firmly decided to go with either the Birger / Canon option, or the Red lenses, or a combination of the two.

If you have any thoughts on the Canon lenses or the Birger mount, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks, Häakon!

-Thor
 
I'm very pleased with the Red 18-50; so much so that I bought the 300 and ordered the 50-150. The cost of the three is about the same as the red primes with much more range. When my second Red arrives I hope I'll be able to use my Nikkor primes.
Aloha
-A
 
I have lots of Canon still glass that I use with my dSLR. It's great for what it is, but I've never put it on a cine camera.

I had an M2 with some Nikon glass previously, but there is aboslutely no comparison with that kind of setup.

The RED is a professional camera and although cine glass is expensive, the system demands it. I'm glad there are options for a wide range of users but I'm at the point where I am no longer choosing to make compromises to get the quality of work I want. For me, the RED lens offerings (so far) have proven to be up to that task.
 
Häakon said:
I have lots of Canon still glass that I use with my dSLR. It's great for what it is, but I've never put it on a cine camera.

I had an M2 with some Nikon glass previously, but there is aboslutely no comparison with that kind of setup.

The RED is a professional camera and although cine glass is expensive, the system demands it. I'm glad there are options for a wide range of users but I'm at the point where I am no longer choosing to make compromises to get the quality of work I want. For me, the RED lens offerings (so far) have proven to be up to that task.
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Häakon,

With your feedback, combined with feedback from others, I've decided to get the 18-50 and spend the balance of my $15,000 budget on Canon lenses for my Birger.

If the Birger works, ie makes still glass behave like cine glass, then I will sell my 18-50.

I'm just hoping I won't have to take too big of a hit if I decide to sell it.

Thanks for the feedback. It's been very instructive and helpful.

-Thor
 
Thor,

Very cool - I think you'll be happy. I'm just one guy with one opinion, but I like to think I'm pretty discerning and I certainly wouldn't recommend something I didn't believe in. Believe me, I have no qualms about being critical.

I'm not sure how that Birger mount works (is it swappable in the field?), so I'm curious as to how often you'll use one kind of lens over the other. You may find that one works much better in some situations over the other, so your experience should prove to be extremely useful for others with the same kinds of questions.

My gut tells me that you're going to love that 18-50 and use it as much as you possibly can, but depending on your project, you may find that the selection of lenses you'll be able to afford with the cheaper glass is more up your alley. Since you will be getting your camera very soon (congratulations!), I anxiously await your results!

-Häakon
 
My 2 cents...

I've looked around for cine glass, and it's hard to come by. As everyone has mentioned, if you do find a set, it's through the roof. Here is the ideal situation in my opinion at this time.

1. Buy Red 18-50 and 50-150 zooms. If someone wants an all Red package, you've got them covered and who knows if all of the rental companies will be buying the Red glass. This also covers you in your own situations where you want to just go and shoot. You've got quite the range. But if you want more and can afford it, why not go with th 300 as well.

2. If the Birger mount is a success, add some still lenses to round out your personal set. Should be able to get the mount and a lot of glass for decent money. Now you've got a lot of coverage and can go shoot just about anything.

3. But for those times when your personal kit doesn't cut it for the client or for your own projects, Rent! S4s, Ultraprimes, whatever floats your boat or someone else's boat, rent them and charge it to the client. If you don't have any rental places nearby, well that poses a problem, but for a lot of us, these cine lenses are out of the price range to buy new, so renting makes a lot of sense.

Looking forward to Birger tests, and that should help with determining which lenses will go in the goody bag.

Steve
 
Steve,

I like all three of your suggestions, and I'm sure the final solution for me will be a dynamic combination of all of them.

At the suggestion of a local still photo pro, I think I will spend $6500 of my budget on the 18-50 to cover my bases for right when I get the camera. About $2000 will go to the Birger system, and the remainder I will hold in reserve until I know I'm going to get the performance I want out of the Birger.

If the Birger performs flawlessly, I will probably sell my 18-50, and reinvest the money in more Canon glass. If not, I'll sell the Birger and invest my remaining balance in the 50-150, or another appropriate PL mount lens.

Thanks for the suggestions!

-Thor
 
Häakon said:
Thor,

Very cool - I think you'll be happy. I'm just one guy with one opinion, but I like to think I'm pretty discerning and I certainly wouldn't recommend something I didn't believe in. Believe me, I have no qualms about being critical.

I'm not sure how that Birger mount works (is it swappable in the field?), so I'm curious as to how often you'll use one kind of lens over the other. You may find that one works much better in some situations over the other, so your experience should prove to be extremely useful for others with the same kinds of questions.

My gut tells me that you're going to love that 18-50 and use it as much as you possibly can, but depending on your project, you may find that the selection of lenses you'll be able to afford with the cheaper glass is more up your alley. Since you will be getting your camera very soon (congratulations!), I anxiously await your results!

-Häakon
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Häakon,

It remains to be seen how swappable any of the mounts are in the field. No one has really had any options up to this point, except maybe for Gibby who has had a prototype Birger mounted to his #8. So, I would expect it would be just as easy/difficult as any of the other mounts.

The theory behind the Birger mount is that you will be able to pull smooth (stepless) focus movements. The movements will be accurate, programmable and repeatable. In other words, the Birger will be "tricking" the still lens into a behaviour that is more suitable for cine, eng, and efg. At least those are my expectations. Anything less will be unacceptable.

To what degree the focus pulls will be stepless remains to be seen. I don't have a techical background, but it seems to be this will be the biggest challenge, since still lenses are designed to focus quickly and linearly.

Another cool thing about the Birger is the plan for autofocus. Erik says 2nd Quarter 08.

Accurate focus and repeatable movements shouldn't be a problem, but we shall see.

Either way, Birger plans to be shipping the first units at the beginning of January, and I should have my by the end of January (hopefully in time for Sundance!).

I will keep everyone posted.

-Thor
 
Thor,

I guess time will tell how we feel about the Red 18-50. Without having it to test, I can only go by people's reports up until this point, and some have been good, others not so impressed. To me, it's all what I see when I have it in my hands. With the new PL mount, improvements to the firmware, etc, perhaps the lens will serve me well and I will use it along with the 50-150 without hesitation. Thats what I'm hoping. I'd love to use those two lenses in a lot of the basic work I do, and then have alternatives to turn to when I need them. If Birger turns out to be a great alternative, I will simply add it to my kit, another tool in the toolbelt.

I think you are wise to not put your eggs in one basket just yet. When you get your camera, test it with as many lenses and mounts as you can and see what works for you and what doesn't. Take it to a rental house, throw on every lens they will let you test and get a feel for how the images look. There's only so much you can ascertain on the internet, the next step is to put it all to the test.

Steve
 
During some testing, clients have been wowed with Nikon and Zeiss still photography glass on our Brevis/HVX setup. So much so that it makes me wonder how much thought really needs to go into all this depending on final output.

I understand the reasons for cine glass on levels of professionalism and practice. However, I have a feeling in the end, with RED quality at the sensor, and our magic in post, most everyday people watching TV, DVDs or HD-DVDs on a SD or HD screen will not be able to tell if you used Nikon, Canon, Zeiss or Cooke...they all make examples of great glass. Ultimately, it's the story you have to tell, and how you tell it.

That aside, if I had the capital, it would be Optimos and Ultraprimes all the way. :)

Depending on client budget we'll be using the Birger/Nikons, some Super 16mm lenses we have and renting Ultraprimes when needed.
 
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